Ian Altman  00:04

Welcome to the Same Side Selling podcast. I know you're shocked to know that I'm your host, Ian Altman. One of the most common questions I get these days is how do we pivot to this virtual environment? How do I make it so that when I'm not connecting with people in person that it looks better? And specifically, how do I make it so that when I'm connecting with people on video, on Zoom, that it doesn't look like the Fisher-Price my first video interaction, which kind of undermines your professionalism that can take away from your message. And this week, I'm joined by a dear friend of mine and someone who taught me a great deal about video setup, Adrian Saulsbury. Adrian runs a group called Adrian Solsbury Training. He runs something called the Ecamm Live Academy, which is a tool that we use in the Mac world. He also runs a whole Pro-video Academy and helps people when it comes to how to present yourself the best way possible in virtual environments and digitally. So, Adrian, welcome to the show.

Adrian Saulsbury 01:12

Hey, Ian. Great to be here. Always a pleasure.

Ian Altman  01:16

You know what, it's always a blast for us to talk. And before we dive into the things that people should be doing, because there's a long list of things that people can learn from, what I'd like to do is I'm going to make it, so just you're on screen. I want to discuss, and maybe you can illustrate, some of the pet peeves that we have when it comes to audio and video on Zoom and things that people do. Maybe you can highlight one of my favorites, which is I call it the nostril cam, where the camera is sitting down, and it's pointing up through someone's nose and seeing their ceiling behind them. Which I guess is great if they have a medical visit for an ear, nose, and throat specialist or they want someone to look at, you know, a drip on their ceiling, but otherwise not so great. So let's talk a little bit about that. Can you share some ideas of one of the things that people might be seeing?

Adrian Saulsbury 02:06

Yeah, I've actually got a mocked-up zoom call here ready to go, actually, and this is a green screen. Normally this, I'll just say this upfront, because you're gonna spot it in a minute, that normally this is my office, and it is there behind me, but we've got builders in today, and I hadn't kind of figured all this out. So I've literally just picked up all my equipment, moved into the house in the dining room, and brought this image in behind me. So when I cut across here, the screenshare of zoom. And so yeah, you're right, you know, if I cut across there, this, what we're referring to, aren't we? You know, people sitting there like this talking away to us. And I think just the difference that you can see there, clearly, it's the same room, same lighting and everything else. Doesn't that look different to be a kind of looking and talking down here to you or actually being up here at eye level? 

Ian Altman  03:05

Yeah, and I think one of the keys is that when people are speaking at eye level, it's how we're used to speaking. I mean, think about the whole notion of looking down to somebody, it's like if you met somebody, an event and they were seated, and you were standing up, you wouldn't stand right over them and look down with them, having them looking up at you It would be an awful experience if somebody did that. So we want to make sure that we're not creating that type of environment. And I also want you to touch on, here's something that I guarantee people are thinking they're saying, oh, wait a minute, I use the virtual background on Zoom all the time, but it doesn't look like Ian's or Adrian’s. Why is that? So shed some light into kind of the mistakes that people make when it comes to those virtual backgrounds.

Adrian Saulsbury  03:56

Yeah, I am. Rachel would laugh, my wife, if she was listening. We were on with a lady that was sorting our wheels out, actually. But she was talking to use the other week, and she’d clearly just clicked on Zoom, we were on a zoom call, clicked this virtual background button, and it was like this blob moving around with her because it, you know? We're asking a lot of Zoom if you haven't got a green screen to ask it to actually do this and create this fake background, and you can see little gaps through into a background because this thing was just trying to do it virtually. I find it a funny mix, really, that on a, really what is a tool being used by professionals, that they just put a feature like this in as to right, we can make this background. It really doesn't work well. And I think for the cost of if we are professionals on here and business people, the cost of getting a green screen just to pop up behind you. I don't know what $100? And actually, all of a sudden, it really does take it up There are other elements to it as well. We're both using  Ecamm, which is much does a much better job of it than Zoom does anyway, and we're both using good cameras, which also has a big part to play in it.

Ian Altman  05:14

Yeah. And I think that one of the things that oftentimes people get stuck on is, I don't have room for the green screen, and I know the one that you use is a pop-up one. So it's kind of like it is if you remember the if you remember screens that people would pull down, this is the same concept, but it pulls up from the ground. And that one that's portable and pops up, you know, what are they like you said, is it $100? Are they $200?

Adrian Saulsbury  05:39

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. But $120, I believe. It's like you'd have at a presentation, you know, just one of these pop-up banners. Yeah, but it's, but it's wider, and it's green. Yeah. And it does a cracking job. I can just turn the thing off. Let me make sure I'm on the right. Yeah, if I pop it off there, it is behind me. And I can literally just pull this thing up and down, and it transforms me into another room. Yeah, I, as I say, this normally is my office, but I love the fact that I could do this and I could just pop this up behind me, change an image, and away we go.

Ian Altman  06:15

Yeah. And the idea is that what I want people to realize is this is your professional image, so much like you wouldn't show up to to an in-person meeting with dirty shoes, a wrinkled shirt, or anything like that. Guess what? When you're meeting with somebody via zoom, if you present yourself professionally, there's a pretty good chance they're going to respond and say, Oh, that looks great. When it looks like you're the Creature from the Black Lagoon because you're coming in and out of the background, or when the lighting isn't right, or when the quality image isn't right. Companies often say, oh, we can't spend money in this. We can't spend money on that. It's like, look, for less than the cost of putting someone on a plane to visit one client, you can actually have the proper setup and the proper training so that when you with meet people, it looks great. And people say, oh, that looks fantastic. It doesn't look like a green screen. It doesn't look like something else. It doesn't look like something that was the Fisher-Price, my first video presentation, but instead that it's all tightly tied together, and they can actually have a connection with you, rather than being distracted by other things.

Adrian Saulsbury  07:28

Yeah, I think we have to respect that. I know, certainly at the start of lockdown, when suddenly people were having to work from home and couldn't get hold of these things, it was happening. But you know, we are coming out of that, and actually, either people are going, this is the new normal, and this is what I'm going to, you know, I'm going to be working from here for a long time. Now let's invest in it. Now it's start showing up or looking more professional. I can remember being on a call with someone must have just sat at the front of the bed, really. And I can just see as they were moving you could just see this untidy bed that sort of pulled the duvet back over or anything, and I'm kind of wanting her to move because I find it quite interesting seeing what’s going on behind. That shouldn't be happening now. You know, there was a season where we were like, okay, we can forgive that.

Ian Altman  08:14

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think there was there was a period of time where people were tolerant of all sorts of things. And now, it's interesting, because I have different pieces of equipment that I bring with me when I'm traveling. So if I know I'm going to be doing a zoom from the road, I've got different clamps and arms and things so I can attach my camera or lighting onto whatever I need. And, I recognize that when I'm on the road, it's rarely going to be an environment where it's going to be the same as when I'm in my studio. Like, I'm not going to have everything as robust. But I've done my Same Side Selling Academy Coach’s Corner from the road, and people say you can hardly tell. Now the funny thing is, I should take a picture of the room, because here I have a clamp that's clamped on to you know, the post that holds the TV in the room, and the view that they had was fine but if the camera had moved an inch one way or the other would have picked up a lamp or a sofa in the hotel room. And it was, and in that case, I was connected via Wi-Fi, which is always a little bit sketchy because you don't get the same level of continuous connection. But talk a little bit, if you can, about audio because I know a lot of times what people say is, oh, it's no worries, my laptop has a microphone and a speaker. Why does it make sense for people to, wherever they can,  have a dedicated microphone? Why does it make sense, like I have one of these in-ear monitors? So for me, you know, I never have to worry about echo, but talk a little bit about that so people can understand how valuable, important audio is.

Adrian Saulsbury 09:53

Yeah, I think it is like with the imaging. As you mentioned earlier, we sit at eye level. We want this to be very natural. The same thing wants to happen with the audio. And it's you don't want it there as a distraction that people are going turn this up or can't quite hear or there's a fan or something going. It definitely pays to have a microphone externally. They're very affordable now anyway. But to have an external USB mic, certainly if you are on a laptop, and good old MacBook Pro that those fans can kick in quite quickly, to be able to have a mic closer to you with the fan and the computer over there, rather than the mic actually built into the device that's causing the noise, definitely a good upgrade to get.

Ian Altman  10:41

Excellent. And then, when it comes to lighting, one of the things I also want you to talk about is this notion that a lot of times, it's just people have kind of a hodgepodge of different lighting. And I know there's something in your Pro Video Academy, you talk about this. And these are things that I didn't know that I learned. I remember at one point, I was having trouble with my green screen keying out properly. And you had said, well, is there another light your room that's a different color? And of course, to my eye, I don't know, they all look like lights to me. And sure enough, I had one light in the room that was a different color, and it messed up everything. So talk a little bit about lighting. Like, you know, I've got three-point lighting here. Can you talk a little bit about what that is, because, once again, sure, you can just sit in front of your camera and do your stuff, but what's the value of having a properly lit scene when we're communicating via zoom?

Adrian Saulsbury 11:33

Firstly, what I want to say is, I think more important than your lighting is your camera. And this is a mistake that I see a lot of people do all the time is they'll go, but I bought four or five different lights now, and I still can't get it bright enough, or I can't get this to do this. But you're on a webcam, you know, a built-in camera on a phone. And actually, you're fighting with your the built-in camera all the time because it's decided this is an auto-level. And if, like with my iPhone, for instance, if I went out at night, it'll try and brighten it up. If it's sunny, it'll try to darken it down. So adding extra lights isn't going to solve the problem particularly. So I would just want to start there. I definitely think you could easily spend $1,000 on lighting. So interestingly enough, if I turn this off, you'll see what I'm talking about. So I don't have, we'll talk about three-point lighting, but for me, I've just got one light in front of me here that because I've turned the camera up and the settings in the camera, it's letting in, I'm on a 30% on the light that I've got here in front of me, and that is enough for the camera to do what it needs to do. So when you talk about three-point lighting, normally, this would be photography lighting that you would have. One light is a main light in front of you, a key light, and then a fill light to the side. And then another one would be coming back over your corner as a rim light or a hair light. That would be a kind of standard photography lighting kit. You can have two lights on you and one dedicated to the background. I see other people actually have just one in front overhead to light them up, and then the other two are pointing back on the green screen to get that nice and bright. So yeah, but you're sorry, there are lots of questions in the room. I could go over half an hour.

Ian Altman  13:30

You know what, Adrian, I think that I think the biggest thing that that I take away from this is that everybody, me included, might overthink the lighting, and the reality is yeah, that if you have a high enough quality camera, and keep in mind, you're not saying go out and buy a $10,000 camera. We're talking about hundreds of dollars.

Adrian Saulsbury 13:51

No, this is like an 800-pound camera. 

Ian Altman  13:54

We're talking about a camera that's got the right type of sensor. I know that, for example, the camera that I have and the lens, I use the Panasonic Lumix, and I've got a G7, which I don't even think they're producing anymore. But it was that and getting the right lens for it. All of a sudden, the keying became dramatically better. And I didn't necessarily change the lighting. Now, there is some lighting stuff that I do, but it's more because, in the studio, it's kind of in my environment. I feel like I need to do it this way. But what it sounds like is with the right camera gear, it's way more forgiving in terms of the feed-in that the system was going to key, so you don't get that person coming in and out of the background.

Adrian Saulsbury  14:38

Yeah, sometimes just the existing lighting is okay, and we get that sorted first and then we sort of add in some lighting to go with it really. But yeah, you mentioned earlier about mixing in some lighting, and I think that is again a fairly classic mistake that maybe you've got a lamp in front of you here in your room, and then you've suddenly brought these two lights in front, and it is It's surprising that the difference in that color of the lighting and you could end up with like orange hair or green actually even sometime. Yeah, we wouldn't even consider it, but the camera is seeing very different lighting coming from different sides. You're right, we can overthink it, but I wouldn't go out spending a lot of money on lighting if you're just using a webcam. Definitely invest in the camera first.

Ian Altman  15:25

Yeah. And I think that's, that's one of the things that people often say to me, Well, how does it look so crisp? I'm like, well, for starters, here's the camera gear that I use. Oh, I just use a webcam. Now what? I'm like, well, yeah, I have a webcam also. I just don't use it for these types of scenes. Because it's not the, it's not a high enough quality. I know, it's a shocker that you know, call it, you know, less than $1,000 worth of camera gear that I'm using now is better than the roughly $100 camera that’s the webcam. It's just designed to do more things. The sensors are more sophisticated. There's more technology in that.

Adrian Saulsbury 16:02

It allows you to do manual control that would be one of the main things really. You know, certainly, on green screen, I see so many people just go gray on green screen, because the camera can't, or the webcams, the auto white balance in them just can't handle the screen, and it takes the color straight out of you. And things like that, it doesn't matter how much lighting you put in, it's not going to help. And it comes back to that question. We were saying at the start, you know, if this is professional, if this is you doing sales pitches, or whatever it might be, you know, is it not worth investing $1000, $2000 in a setup like this?

Ian Altman  16:40

And Adrian, let me ask you this, because for those people who use, use a Mac platform, so I will tell you that historically, I spent my entire life being a Windows person carrying a ThinkPad with me. And the only thing that caused me to become a Mac user was the software Ecamm live that then once I got there and said, this is pretty cool. How do I learn how to use this? And I enrolled in your program, and just so people know, Adrian is set up where he runs these programs absolutely amazing. The instruction there is top-notch. And I don't get anything from it. It's um, there's no, you know. And Adrian was kind enough to say, Hey, do you want an affiliate link? And I said, Now, because I'd rather be able to just tell people, Look, this is great, and I don't get anything for it. But talk about some of the things that people can do, and if you want, you can show them once again. If you're listening to this on a podcast, I encourage you to go on to samesideselling.com and pull up the podcast or look it up on YouTube, so you can actually watch this, you'll see it, but I'd love for you to show some things that you can do in this ecamm environment. And I know you've got an Ecamm Live Academy. It’s a two-week program. And it's just an hour day. It's absolutely phenomenal, and I enjoy just being in the community. Great people experimenting with stuff, people going live, figuring out how to do all that. I'm going to flip the screen just to use so you can show people some of the things that you can do that are really easy to do in this in this environment that maybe you can't do otherwise.

Adrian Saulsbury 18:26

And that's the quick shout-out to Ian because I remember when he came through the Ecamm Academy the first time and did some very clever things there, and you pre-recorded some little videos. And you were using the clicker to move from one scene to the next, which is kind of like PowerPoint using slides. So he knows his way around this. Definitely, if you're on the podcast, do come over because this is quite cool. We're talking specifically about Zoom really and how you can use Ecamm into Zoom. We just ran a whole weekend training on it. And so things that you can't, typically in Zoom, so this now I can send this feed straight out of Ecamm into Zoom. So what you're seeing here is exactly how it's looking on my Zoom chat. And you're quite restricted in Zoom in that you kind of click and go I've got my camera, or if I want to do a screen share, I firstly click Screen Share, then I decide if I want the entire screen. I can set everything up in here in advance. So at the click of a button, I can move across on here. So let me demonstrate a couple of things. This is how we can bring in, for instance, the Zoom chat. So did you know you could do this? You can actually, that chat window that you have over there, you can pull it, you can detach it from using Windows so it sits on a floating window and then in ecamm I can I can pick this up. I can crop in the edges so that you can't see where it's saying things like this. What about polls? If you've discovered polls that you can do inside of Ecamm. But you can do very simple polls that you can set up in advance. You could do more advanced ones, depending on which plan you're on. And again, pretty cool to be able to say, come on, and let's jump in. I'm going to put this up on your screen. Let us know what you think. And all of a sudden, it's not over there in the chat with it's always back to the camera, but it's completely submurssive. We're in the same space together here. I can completely brand this up, you know?  If I wanted to make it look this way, I literally start with a blank canvas and go, where do I want to put myself? Do I like this little frame around it? Do I want it rounded or squared? And I've dropped a logo in. I'll move this chat around to a different place. It is completely fluid as to how I want to design this and lay it out. And one of the things I was just showing Ian actually before I came on, was we had to go with this. We ran like a three-hour-long zoom call. And we wanted to be able to put breaks in it, firstly, so that we could just have a break and use the bathroom if need be but also to give people a chance to do exactly the same thing. So that allowed us,  we can preset the time, we can choose the music, we can choose the animation and things. But all of a sudden, we've just gone to a whole other level with our presentation. And I think, sadly, Zoom is seen as being a pretty boring place. And I think maybe it's this necessary evil that we all got forced onto Zoom, and we don't want to be doing it. But imagine when people show up to your zoom call, and all of a sudden, that's the experience they have, they're going to be coming away going. I can't believe this. This guy just did all this, and he brought this on screen, and he made music appear.

Ian Altman  21:51

And the idea is that all of these things were showing, get surfaced through natively into Zoom. So that when I'm doing things via Zoom, what people will often say to me is they say, well, but you can't do that on Zoom, how are you doing that because I saw that you had this show up or you had that show up? So, for example, in my Same Side Selling Academy, we will often share different questions that people have. So someone will have a question and what we do is we bring it up on screen. So it can be something like this, so you'll see the question on the screen for those of you watching, but it's how do I manage a meeting and stay focused on the same side quadrants when I have a large audience of 12 plus people? And keep in mind, it's like, and I'm just pulling up things on the fly and just having things show up or disappear. But the idea is that I can do that. And people say, Well, wait a minute, you didn't share your screen? How did that show up? And sometimes I'll have it so that slides are behind me, or I'm in the slide or things like that. It’s just all about visual interest. And it's not for the gimmick of it but instead, what we have to think about is how are we keeping people engaged in our conversation? Because if they're distracted because your image is coming in and out, if they can't see what's on the screen, if they're going from full screen to not full screen, and back and forth, those are all distractions that can take away from your message. If if you're on the call, you're on a video chat, and their first thought is, the person really needs to trim their nose hairs, then you probably have that nostril cam looking up. If they say, hey, you should probably paint your ceiling, that tells you that it's not the right angle. Because right now, Adrian and I can have a conversation where we're looking face to face and see each other. In fact, there are ways that I can make it so that Adrian's on screen. So very often, we'll bring people on in Zoom side by side. In this environment, if we wanted to, I could have Adrian come in green screen and be sitting next to me, and it just it would have looked like oh like now they're in the same place. And not to say that you're gonna want to use that in every scenario, but instead, what I want you to realize is that with this Ecamm Live platform, it's something that I use in all of my Zoom meetings and all of my recordings. So everything we do in the Same Side Selling Academy we record in the same environment. The idea is that we get that interactive experience of dropping in other graphics of really engaging people that we can't do otherwise. And I will tell you that the next Coach's Corner that we, so we do a Coach's Corner in our academy the first Wednesday of every month until you showed me oh and here's the way to bring the chat in, I had forgot about doing that, which is just another example of the kinds of things that you share and teach people that we might overlook otherwise and all of a sudden I was like ah, such a fool. I should do that.

Adrian Saulsbury 24:53

The only caution with that am before you go doing it is to know that that chat window there includes public and personal chat. So if you've got someone reach out to you and goes, that Brian's really annoying, kick him off, or something, it’s going to appear right there in front of you. So, either disable the private chat side of it. I just want to spell that one out. I don't when you can put that on.

Ian Altman  25:18

I appreciate you sharing that. So, Adrian, what, what's the best way for people to connect with you to learn more about whether it's the Ecamm Academy or the Pro Video Academy, there are a lot of great resources you have. I want people to be able to reach out and learn more from you. Because I will tell you that if you search, if you Google just about anything related to video, Ecamm anything else, you're going to see one of hundreds of videos that Adrian generously shares freely out there, beyond his training. So, just so you know, the man is a legend in this space, but how can people find you?

Adrian Saulsbury 25:59

Yeah, and if people are like, Why is he making all these different courses? Where's the logic in that? How can you look that good on camera, and I went? Well, to me, it's pretty straightforward. So we built this academy very much to say, this is how you get going with this equipment.  I think if someone's reached out to me and said, I want to look like that, then why show four different camera options and a multitude of lighting options? So my academy is very much, here's my equipment. Here are a set of videos to show you how to do it. And now I've got a community space where you can come in, and we will tweak the lighting, and we'll get rid of you know if you're getting colored hair come through and things like that will sort that out in our community. So it started in that Pro Video Academy. And then I realized I've got an audience of people here that are then saying, oh, you know, now what do I do with it. You should be using Ecamm to make videos. So that's why we started an Ecamm Academy, and we do a YouTube Academy and a Kajabi Academy, all really around that person who we've just helped get going on camera. So any of those, they all fit under the umbrella of Adrian Salisbury Training. And adriansalisbury.com is our website where you can find all of those individual academies. The thing to say is Pro Video, you can join at any time. But the Ecamm Academy and the YouTube Academy, they both only appear twice a year. So we're about to open the doors, as you mentioned to run that for two weeks, and then it won't be up again until October. You mentioned it earlier, but that community is really powerful. I think if you'd have just downloaded my course watched the videos, that's only half of it really. It's then having a space to commit to and go it’s the kind of accountability and challenge to do it. Let's have a go at doing that and bring in some scenes. Let's go interviewing somebody. And so that's why we've kept it in that. Yeah, cohort course that you were working through together

Ian Altman  27:54

Now, you know, and I love it because even as somebody who is a professional and considers myself a professional in terms of video presentation, I love the fact that I'd connect with a handful of people and say, Okay, we're gonna do a session tonight. We're going to do a Zoom session. We're going to play with this feature or that feature. We're gonna do a Facebook Live, and we're gonna play with these different features. And it's things that we're not for the structure in the program I would have said, Oh, cool, I can do that. And I never would have done it instead of Yeah. Now if someone says, Hey, can you go live with this, of course, because I did it half a dozen times as part of the course. Now it's comfortable for me. So and, and if you charge five times what you charge, it would still be a good value. So it's something that, you know, if I recall correctly, it's at least twice, if not three times that I've gone through the program and use this tool every day. But it's just it's a matter of I always hear or learn something new that didn't pick up, pick up on before. So I encourage people to check it out. Adrian Salisbury Training. We'll have a link in the show notes as well. But always just great information. So when this question was coming up, and people said, “How do I make it so my Zoom is not generic?” “How do I stand out these digital communications?” there was only one person to talk to you, and you were it. So, thanks so much for coming on, Adrian.

Adrian Saulsbury  29:16

Thank you very much. I think really just as a final thing, you know, the what you don't want people to do when they come on to your Zoom call is going Oh, really? He looks an amateur. You know, she didn't look great. You know, that's what you don't want that foundation really, I really would encourage people to consider getting this camera, a microphone, lights, you know, or whatever it may it doesn't have to be mine, but this setup and really just invest in this because if you're on here, how much better for you to show up on the other end of a Zoom call and people go oh, wow, you look like a professional. So yeah, thank you, Ian. 

Ian Altman  29:56

Thank you, Adrian. Let me give people a quick 30-second recap. What I think are key pieces of information that you can use and apply to your business. First, focus on the camera because many people, me included, might focus on the lighting or other things. But the right camera, other than just a webcam, could make the difference. And Adrian’s got a lot of suggestions and guidance on where you go and what type of equipment you can get without breaking the bank. Second, make sure from a microphone standpoint, you're not just going with the lowest common denominator. For not a lot of money, you can add a microphone that's going to add good sound quality for your interactions. And then look at using other tools to better enhance the experience and engage your audience. If you're someone who's a Mac user, Ecamm live is something that I endorse incredibly. It’s what shifted me to the Mac world because when I saw this, I said, okay, I guess I'm getting a Mac now, and now I've got multiple Mac machines. So this is almost a commercial for Apple and Ecamm all at once. And of course, if you want to learn how to do all these things, visit Adrian Salisbury Training. And if you search for Adrian Salisbury, if you search for Ecamm, he'll probably come up, and he's a great resource to help you get there. So thanks again for joining me, Adrian. Thank all of you for joining me as well. And we will see you on the next Same Side Selling podcast.

Welcome to the Same Side Selling Podcast. I'm your host, Ian Altman. I received an email the other day from somebody who I've known for a long time. He said, What do we do when we get these emails from somebody that says, Hey, we love your stuff, please send us a proposal for x. Now, it might be a phone call they received, it might be an email, but nonetheless, it's a common thing that happens with businesses, which is, hey, we want to buy your stuff. How much is it? Just send me a proposal, send me a quote. This could be a trap. And let me explain why.

Our initial reaction is this is a great opportunity. Somebody contacted us, they're really excited about what we've got, and they want us to send them a proposal. So let's just follow this through.

We send them a proposal. Now we don't hear back from them. And then what's our recourse? Then we're just calling to check-in. We're like begging. We need a cardboard sign and a tin cup. Because like, hey, just kind of check-in. I want to see if you have made a decision yet. Hey, we were just calling to check-in. And it's a terrible way for us to follow up. 

The other thing I want you to consider is this unless you're in a business that is purely transactional, where you're okay, competing just on price, if someone says just send me a quote for your products and services, and you don't have any other discussion with them, then you've just commoditized yourself because you haven't asked any questions. You haven't figured out at all whether you've got something that differentiates you from the competition. 

So what should we do instead? Well, the first thing I want you to consider is this, you don't yet know enough about their situation to know exactly what it would cost. Because when someone says, send me a proposal for x, what we know is that virtually 100% of the time, whatever people put into a request for proposal, often referred to as an RFP, request for proposal, which could be as simple as an email that says, send me a proposal or quote for x, we know that almost 100% of the time, what you actually need to know to verify that you can deliver results is not all in that document. There are usually elements missing, which if you had a good conversation, you would know whether or not you can help them. But we don't have that information upfront. So when someone asks for that information, we're actually doing them and us a disservice by not engaging in further conversations, not really understanding what it is they're trying to do. 

So instead, when someone says, oh, can you send me a proposal for this, you can say to them, you can respond and say, thanks so much. I'm really flattered that you reached out to us. There are a few additional pieces of information I need to know to be sure that I'm sending you a proposal for the right information. It would be horrible for both of us if I sent you the wrong information. I don't either want to overthink it or underthink the situation and send you the wrong thing. Is there no way we could spend a few minutes just to make sure that there's nothing we're missing? Because I want to make sure that we can both hold me accountable for your results. 

So what I've just done is I haven't said, Oh, well, we don't like to respond unless we have a conversation because that sounds like I'm just worried about me as the seller. Instead, I'm conveying that there are reasons that could be in the buyer's best interest for us to have a conversation. I want to make sure that I don't overpromise or underdeliver what it is that they need. And by doing that, what I'm illustrating is that the outcome for them is more important than just the sale. Now what some people will do is say, Oh, well, our policy is that we don't do X, Y, and Z. We don't send this out without a conversation. Well, now you're talking about your policies. And if I'm the buyer, I'm like, I don't care about your policies because you want to run me through some sales process. I don't care about that. I need to give the buyer a reason why it's in their best interest to consider that we might have something better or different, and without that conversation, we can't do it. Now, as soon as I get on the phone with them or as soon as I'm having any sort of dialogue, what I want to do is say you mentioned you want to quote for A, B, and C, what is it that inspires you to look for that right now? Because I want to fully understand your situation to make sure that whatever we propose will meet or exceed your expectations. Are you okay with that? Now, I finished by asking, “Are you okay with that?” because I'm not trying to just convince them, hey, do it my way. What I'm saying is, here's what I'm trying to learn.

Are you okay with that approach that's different than maybe what you were thinking about before? Now I'm not forcing them into a situation. I'm giving them an opportunity to make a choice that I believe is in our mutual interest. At that point, it's a matter of they might say to you, well, I just didn't know how much it is, say, solutions like you're talking about depending on the client. And oftentimes, they will describe it exactly like you have, and those range from, and I'll give you an example, those range from $12,000 to $46,000. And I know that's a ridiculous range that no one could plan for. I need to learn a little bit more so I can give you an accurate piece of information rather than give you that ridiculous range. Would you mind if I asked you a few more questions, so I can give you a little more accurate estimate? Who's gonna say no to that? No, no, you know, I don't want anything accurate. I just want you to spitball it. 

You can then, to further differentiate yourself, say, yeah, I don't know how anybody can credibly tell you how much it's going to cost to do something without asking these sorts of questions. And what happens in that instance is the client thinks to themselves, well, these two other vendors responded to me, and they didn't ask these questions. But this vendor is asking me questions. So if I agree that how could someone give an estimate without knowing this other information, and other people have given it to me, then that should be a red flag on those other vendors. 

So just to recap, here's a really simple concept, someone calls you up and says, please send me a quote, please send me a proposal, what we immediately want to do is respond by saying, first of all, we're flattered. I'd love to give you that information. I want to make sure I get you something accurate. Sometimes there are things that we don't know about that could really modify and make the scope much larger or smaller. I want to make sure that I'm getting this accurately. Can we spend a few minutes so I can make sure I'm giving you accurate information? 

And then as soon as we have the conversation, we want to start going through the Same Side Quadrants that we talked about in Same Side Selling to find out what inspired them to reach out, what's the impact and relative importance of not solving this, what results and success are they looking for, and who else is impacted. And that way, we get the full picture. And then if we do share a proposal and we don't hear back from them, we get to say, when we spoke with you, you mentioned that this is what happened if you didn't solve this. Here's what success was going to look like. Did you already find another way to solve this? And now we have a way of following up in their interest, not just our own. 

If you liked this episode, share it with friends. Please feel free to click Like in your favorite podcast episode. And if there are topics you'd like to hear, drop me a note to Ian@IanAltman.com. Thanks again for joining me on the Same Side Selling Podcast.

Welcome to the Same Side Selling Podcast. I'm your host, Ian Altman. 

I was having a conversation with a colleague recently, and he said, as far as I'm concerned, all salespeople are positive. In fact, the really successful salespeople are always positive, and they're always optimistic. And I disagree. Because I actually think that the most successful salespeople are not overly optimistic. In fact, it might surprise you that they're somewhat skeptical. 

Now, here's what I mean by that. The optimistic salesperson believes that every time they have an interaction with somebody, that individual is likely to become a client. They just don't know it yet. So I'm going to share all about our products and services and capabilities, and you're going to get all excited, and you're going to buy our stuff, and they chase every deal down to the end. And what that does is it repels a lot of people. And it makes people say, Oh, I don't want to deal with this person because they can't take no for an answer. It's like the overly ambitious person at a bar, at a restaurant, whatever. It's like, get this person away from me. In fact, it's the reason why we walk into a store, and we see a salesperson. The salesperson says, May I help you? And we say no, thanks, just looking. Why do we say no thanks, just looking? It's because we believe they're looking out for their own interest, not ours. 

So I would say that top-performing salespeople are not overly optimistic. They don't believe that everyone's the right fit. In fact, the top performers who I see are always a little bit skeptical. Now, what do I mean by that? They're not skeptical about whether or not their company can deliver. They're not skeptical about whether or not they can deliver what the customer needs. They're not skeptical about whether or not they can do a better job than their competitors. But instead, the top-performing salespeople are always a little bit skeptical about whether or not the client is as committed to finding a solution as the salesperson is. 

So top-performing sellers are always taking that little bit of skepticism that says, I would like you to convince me that your problem is worth solving, that you're committed to dedicating the resources to actually solve that problem, and that if you saw a solution to it, that you would actually move forward with that, and execute whatever it took to achieve the outcome that you're looking for. Now, that may seem a little bit far-fetched, but what it means is that top performers, instead of always trying to be convincing before they ever start talking about their solution, they asked great questions about what's the issue that the client is trying to address? What's the impact of not solving that problem? How important is this compared to other things on your plate? What does success look like? Because if I don't know what success looks like for you, there's a chance that I won't be able to deliver it. And if I'm someone who sells with integrity, I can't take a risk that you're going to go down the path of something that isn't going to generate the right outcome. That'll make me look bad, and you'll regret ever buying anything from me. So I need to make sure that we have a mutual understanding about the outcome. And of course, I need to make sure that I understand who needs to be involved so that if someone critical does need to be involved, that we include them in the process in a way that's comfortable for you. 

What that means is that, before I ever present anything, I take people through what we refer to as the Same Side Quadrants. And the same side quadrants cover those four key pieces of information. So you take a blank sheet of paper, draw a vertical line down the center, horizontal line across, creating four equal quadrants. In the upper left quadrant, we take notes about the issue. Namely, what is it that inspired you to meet with us today? And you're not looking for them to say, Well, I was hoping to learn about your software. Oh, great. You're excited about our software? Let me tell you all about it. You say, really, what was it about our software that caught your attention? Well, I was hoping you could do X, Y, and Z. Okay, how do you do X, Y, and Z today? Well, here's the way we do it. Okay. Well, what do you like about that? What don't you like about that? What happens if you don't solve that? That question, what happens if you don't solve that is what takes us from the issue/upper left quadrant to the impact, which is the upper right quadrant. 

And impact is not only what happens if you don't solve it. Can you quantify what that impact is if you don't solve it, but also, how important is this compared to other things on your plate? Because if it's costing them a lot, but it's not one of their top priorities, they're probably not committed to finding a solution for it. 

Then I say, Well, just because you engage us, just because you buy our products and services doesn't mean that we would be successful. So what could we measure together down the road? Now I ask questions about their outcome and what it is they're trying to achieve. So when I ask those questions about their outcome and what it is they're trying to achieve, now I'm getting a sense of, okay, I know what they were trying to solve initially. I know what happens if they don't solve it. They convinced me why it was so important. And I know what the outcome looks like. Now I get to do some soul searching and say, as the seller, do I feel I can actually deliver what it is that they need. 

And if I feel that there may be a chance for that, now, I want to get a sense of so who else would have an opinion about how this has impacted your organization? Who's the most directly impacted by this problem? Who else would have a strong opinion about how we measure success? That'll give me a sense of who else needs to be involved. 

And now I have a structure for having a conversation where my skepticism gets rewarded because they might convince me that though they would like to solve this, it's not that big of a deal, and they're not going to invest the resources to pursue this. Or they might convince me that, in fact, this is important enough for them to solve, it's a high enough priority, that our solution really matters to them and that it's worth considering, and it's worth spending more time. 

Top-performing sellers know that you can't waste time pursuing the wrong opportunities. Top-performing sellers know that there are always more opportunities. We need to focus our time on the organizations where we can have the greatest impact on their results, not the people who just kind of don't really care about solving the problem at all. So the top performers are the ones who are skeptical. They're the ones who say, I'm not so convinced that they're serious about this yet. I haven't heard enough information that would tell me that if I were spending the money, I would commit the dollars to do this. 

And if you take that approach, if you spend a little bit of time asking those questions and taking the role of being just a little bit skeptical, you might find yourself accelerating sales, working with clients who are less price-sensitive, and wasting less time on bad opportunities. 

See you next time on the Same Side Selling Podcast.

Welcome to the Same Side Selling Podcast. I'm your host, Ian Altman. I know that it's a surprise to many of you that I am the host of the Same Side Selling Podcast. I'm joined this week by a repeat guest, but it's a special occasion this time. So my guest is Raman Sehgal. And Raman has been on sharing his story in the past about how he's used Same Side Selling in his business. And today, we're having him on as a newly published author and a book called "The Floundering Founder." So Raman, welcome to the show.

00:41 Raman Seghal 

Thank you, Ian, it is a genuine pleasure to be back here for a third time. Am I, am I the first third-timer? Or have you had, oh, don't break my heart and say you’ve had other third and fourth timers?

00:53 Ian Altman

Listen, I don't need to talk about it because it never comes across? Well, it's, you know, I don't want people to think that you know, I'm speaking. But there are some people who have, in fact, been on multiple times, but they weren't coming on the third time to talk about their new book. So you would be the first person to come on, who started as kind of somebody who we were profiling as here's a case study on how someone used Same Side Selling. And in fairness, you’ve achieved so much success that now you've got a book that talks about how other people can learn and key lessons in growing their business. So I think it's, you're in a niche, no matter how you look at it.

01:39 Raman Seghal

That's fine. And your book has played a significant role in my journey in the success that I've been able to achieve.

01:48 Ian Altman

Well, you know, that's, that's a nice thing to say. So here's where I want to start our conversation, which is, you've obviously had some good success. You've really, you've grown your agency quite well. You've grown multiple businesses, in fact, on multiple continents, so your agency operates in the UK, where you are right now, as well as you've got offices in the Boston area, and I don't even know where else, but I know those two locations. And so my question for you is, what are the things that you didn't know when you were first starting your businesses or early on in your businesses that you wish you knew back then, but obviously, you didn't?

02:29 Raman Seghal

There are so many, and it's almost like, where do I start, but I think broadly speaking, and I think you, most of your listeners would have heard the concept of, you know, working on your business and not in your business. But I think for many of us, we often end up running businesses because we're good at something, right? So for me, I was going to marketing, right? You know, you yourself are at good sales, and you end up running a business based on your technical ability, and then that business starts growing, and you have to learn to do all the other crap that comes with growing a business whilst actually doing the doing. And certainly for myself, and for many other people in my shoes, what I found is, it can become a very consuming journey, the business, your business will eat every hour, minute, and second of your day. And you have to make time to work on making sure the business is going in the right direction, targeting the right people, and going to market in the right way, but also investing in yourself as well. You know, I'm a big believer in, you know, I have benefited and my business has benefited, and my team has benefited from me taking time to invest in my own personal development. And I think owner-managed businesses and owners of small businesses are typically terrible at that is what my observation is. And if they actually spent a bit of time working on themselves, that business would probably benefit from it.

03:58 Ian Altman

It's certainly true. And I think that one of the things that often happens is, I'll hear from people, and especially entrepreneurs when they're starting a business or when they're ramping up, they're so focused on doing the work for the current project. And a lot of times, it's people in service-related businesses or even people on the product side, they're focused on that next big sale, and they get that sale, and they execute it, and then they turn around and say, Oh, my God, I have no new business coming in. Now, what do I do? And so it's kind of they run into these peaks and valleys in their business because they're not looking at it as how do I grow a sustainable business that has recurring revenue and can really sustain growth? They think, to your point, okay, here's the thing I'm good at. So I need to convince someone to pay me to do that. Now I'm going to go do it. Okay, now that I've done it, now, I gotta find someone new, who is going to pay me to do it, and they end up on that on that wheel, just running and running and running and not really going anywhere. At the end of the year, they say, I really didn't make the kind of money I was hoping to make. And I think they can also fall into the trap of just chasing any business that's going to generate revenue and help them pay the bills, because, of course, that's the most demanding requirement on any business leader is, I gotta make sure I can support the people I've got, and we can make money in the business. So what are some of the things that you learned along those lines, and you can also touch on things that are in the book, because I think you've got, you know, specific lessons for people on their business as well as for their personal development?

05:31 Raman Seghal

Yeah, I mean, what you said there is so true. And I think one of the, I suppose, original learnings I got from hearing you speak, and then reading Same Side Selling and actually just understanding the process, which was recognizing that not every customer is a good customer and learning to say no, and I know, I think on previous episodes, we discussed this in detail. But I think, once you've been running your business for a few hours, you should start building a picture of what a good buyer is and what a bad buyer is. And actually, in the book, one of the first tasks, if you like, you know, I ask the reader to do is something called a client matrix, where you effectively plot your the level of maintenance of a client versus the level of profit you make. So you know, you want, you know, low maintenance, high-profit clients on the whole, as opposed to you know, the flip side is your low profit, high maintenance clients that will absolutely destroy you. And what I think happens is you start, if you are acquiring clients and you are working on clients, sometimes need to take a step back to look at, okay, well, which are the best ones for our business, and which are adding the most value. And actually, we're delivering the work, and they're not complaining as much. And taking that time to do that analysis is very worthwhile because it then enables you to build a picture, okay, well, who should be our clients in the future. And, and interestingly enough, you know, when we did this in 2015, or 16, it made me realize that, ah, 80%, of our kind of good business comes from the pharmaceutical sector. And actually, you know, it was a pivot moment of niching down in our business where we just decided to focus on that, you know the supply chain of drug development in manufacturing. And I would never have come to that realization without doing that analysis of kind of what makes a good buyer and, you know, what goes into that is just making sure your marketing messages and materials reflect that as well. You know. I often laugh at like, I'll see someone pitching themselves is, they’ll say, we're a design specialist for the FinTech sector. And you go on the website, and it's like, hey, we design for any company in the world. So if you're a FinTech buyer, you're like, wait a minute these like, where's the meaningful information for me. So I think those things are really important for people to just, it's almost like I talked about in the book, like, it's like being on a hike, right? And sometimes you just need to stop sometimes and work out what direction you're going and which path to take. And, you know, what I've tried to do early on in the book is to kind of give people a few tools and techniques to allow them to do that in a really simple way. Like, I am not, you know, this is not an MBA-centric academic framework. This is hey, guys, here's the stuff I did. It's really simple. And, you know, it is like using a client matrix, building a really basic persona of your client, like, these are basics to you and I, but to a lot of people, they just don't make the time to do this. And it will, certainly in my case, and other people that massively benefits them with their, you know, that because you know, to your point, or forcing the fit, which has one of the best ending of I've ever heard in a business book is knowing who you market to, and who's good client makes it really easy to spot the bad ones.

08:56 Ian Altman

So here's my question for you. Because I think that it, some people will hear this and think, yeah, but you know what, I need to have all these different areas of business that I go after, because, you know, we get business from all these different sources. So without getting into necessarily the specific dollar amounts, what's been the growth and trajectory of the growth of the business since you shifted that focus and said, Okay, we're only going to take on these types of clients. We're not going to take these other ones that we could get. We're not going to do this stuff that a bunch of other people can do. We're gonna double down on this industry or these industries and only do that. What's been the difference in terms of profitability? You know, the sales process and the sales cycle, the growth of the business, things like that, because I think that's something that'll be insightful for people to hear about.

09:56 Raman Seghal

I'm just having a quick look. We are since we did it, we are 12 times the size.

10:01 Ian Altman

Only 12 times?

10:07

I can't do the maths of the profitability. It's just too complicated for my small head. But it's a lot more. And that's not just my business. I've seen this work really, really well for other people who've got similar businesses and predominantly service-based businesses that are in multi sectors, they just keep going after business in multiple sectors and all have multiple service lines, and just become a very broad generalist. And I think, I also think buyers are savvier now where buyers are looking for more specific expertise, whether you know, you know, for example, if you are, let's say you're in the construction sector, you want to work with a partner that has some experience of working with your type. They understand the language of your sector. They understand the, you know, they're not just buying your technical expertise. Now I call it, you know, that domain knowledge of combination of sector expertise and technical expertise. And it also makes the selling process a lot more consultative to your kind of way of doing things, and your conversion rate will go up because your annual can charge a higher price. I mean, it might be on the analogies you've given me in the past has been that kind of classic, you've got a bad knee, right? Do you want to see a family physician, or do you want to see a knee specialist? And I bet you pay twice for the knee specialist. You know, it's not more complicated than that in like, in its infancy, if you like, it's very kind of basic level. But I think the thing that most people struggle with is the courage to do it. And that's the hard bit. You know, I remember saying when we did this, Ian, I remember thinking, okay, 50% of our business is not where we are focusing. And all of those clients dwindled down over time. But then, you know.

11:59 Ian Altman

I remember you, and I have a discussion about this very thing, where I said, Look, here's one of the critical things, and I know that's a hard thing to do, but you got to pick who you can serve the best and focus just on them. And I remember you saying, yeah, but what if a good portion didn't even say half, you said what if a good portion of our business isn't in that niche? So there's that concern of, look, I've got this amount of business, but I know that those other people aren't necessarily going to value what we do because we're going to seem like we're a commodity. In fact, I've got an upcoming episode one of our clients in the construction industry. It's funny that you mentioned construction, and they're a good-sized construction company. In fact, before we started working with them, they were a $100 million company. So before they implemented anything related to Same Side Selling, they were a $100 million business. And the challenge was, as their CEO explains, they were a $100 million business for three consecutive years. And he said we've got to do something different. I had spoken at an event similar event where you and I had met. And he said, Okay, we want to implement the Same Side Selling stuff. And that was about five or six years ago now. And this last year, they closed out at roughly 650 million. And the funny part is that part of what they did was they said, you know, we serve these industries really well. We're gonna double down on those industries. And the funny part is that people in those industries, they don't want to work with anybody else because everyone else says, Well, we're a general contractor, which they really embrace the term general. And they say, Oh, we're a general contractor. We can build anything. And these guys come in, and for example, they'll work in the biotech sector, and they have a whole division that just does biotech. And part of the way they present their company is they present it and say, Look, we know the certain requirements in biotech. For example, you're never going to see one of our people walking through one of your cleanrooms accidentally, and now you've got to start over in reestablishing that cleanroom. We know that we can't just order a part for this type of system in a week's notice. We know that there's a four-month lead time on that. And if people didn't know that, then your project would be going along fine, and all of a sudden, there's a four-month delay that you can do nothing about. And so all of a sudden, they went from 100 million to 650 million in a short timeframe. And in those stories, the thing that I love is that people where it was we were 100, 100, 100 and now we're 650. Or there's another client we profile a case study on Same Side Selling who they were 15 million, 16 million, 17 million. They implemented Same Side Selling, and then three years later, they were 109 million. So it's, you know, that story of your business growing 12 fold is always music to my ears because here's what I will tell you. It's not just about Same Side Selling. It's who are the business leaders who actually learn these lessons and apply them? Because there are many more businesses where they have actually read the book or listen to the podcast, then there are people who have grown tenfold, 12 fold, etc. And the reason why is because not everyone implements these ideas. Not everyone internalizes it the way that you have. So that notion of realizing who your ideal clients are and just focusing on them it's uncomfortable for a lot of businesses because you have to, in essence, agree that I'm going to bypass certain business. In my prior, the first business that I started, when I look back, we did some work in the federal government because we're in the Washington DC area. And we said, well, you have to do some stuff in the federal government when you're there. When I look back, historically, it was a waste of time. We made almost no margin on it. They were the biggest pain in the neck for us to deal with. And it wasn't where we delivered the highest value. And I had no clue. Now I look back at that business, I think, why did we spend time for less than 10% of our business doing this stuff that took 30% of our time to get ten percent of the business. It didn't make sense. So what are some of the other things, the big lessons? Because you titled the book "The Floundering Founder." So I want to get a sense of you. Why did you come up with that name for the book?

16:27 Raman Seghal

Just to make it difficult for you to say, Ian, to be honest. I think the name was, I'm a fan of alliteration generally, but I think it hopefully to evoke that sense of sometimes you feel like you're suffocating and it's hard to keep your head above water when you go in as a founder. When you kind of running the business and you're growing, and everything's coming in, you know, it's kind of, you're wearing 50 hats. That kind of classic founder trying to do everything situation. And that's the point at which the majority of the book or the kind of the primary aim of the book is aimed at people who are going through that particular challenge, where they are just feeling like overwhelmed, and they're not sure where they're going. And it's not that they're not making money on growing a business. It's not about that because what I found in my experience is growth is great, but it can also be very overwhelming and suffocating. And actually, it can add more pressure because we've done 50% growth this year, we'll have to do 60% next year, and it kind of never ends in that sense. And so I think the name of the book was very much to evoke that kind of sense of okay, this is I'm struggling, and I need kind of like I need some direction. I need I need help. And, you know, and as I mentioned for, you know, the first kind of 12 lessons of the 24 lessons or learnings, they're all based on my mistakes, right? They're based on the things that I did, that I wish I did, you know, you asked that question at the start, you know, in a way you wish you didn't, like the entire book is based on things that I learned on the journey and hopefully that will help shortcut and give people kind of quicker access to whether it's tools or kind of always the 20% the stuff that I wish I had known that has kind of made the 80% of the impact. That's the kind of way of doing it. And you know, in the second half of the book is all about that self-investment in yourself as well. And, you know, learning as you go. Reading your book was life-changing, genuinely life-changing for me, and I implemented the stuff as well. And I've since read tons of books being I got into the habit of reading books, like every day, I will read, like a bit of a book and 10-15 pages and over a year that kind of compound effect is I will read 20 books a year. Twenty books a year for a creative person is a lot when your mind is full of ideas anyway, do you know what I mean? Like so, you know, friends, one of my friends, I think he read like three books a week or something like that. It's crazy how much he reads. But, he's not trying to implement everything. He's just he just wants to absorb the knowledge. Whereas I'm one of these that I will read a book and I'll be like, Okay, I want to put this in. I'm gonna try this tomorrow in my business. I tried to write the book in a way that was, you know, really jargon-free, nonacademic, non corporate. It's like normal words people will understand and because actually just because we've run a business doesn't mean we know all the corporate spiel right of the investment world and all that kind of stuff because the majority of us don't.

19:32 Ian Altman

So Raman, let me ask you this because we talked about the growth side of it that I think is going to be familiar for everybody. And that notion of narrowing your niche and knowing which clients are the right clients, that sort of stuff, which I think is incredibly valuable. What's the biggest lesson you learned in terms of the personal development side? And, you know, the focus on yourself, your family, things like that, that I think a lot of people can easily overlook. I know that when in growing my prior businesses, I grew businesses to a good size. I sold them. The company that acquired them asked me to run the parent company. We were about $100 million in value at the time. We grew to $2 billion. When I look back, I don't see the growth. I see all the stuff I missed in my family's life that I regret missing. And so it's kind of a weird thing. What about for you? What are the big lessons, and you can touch on the things that are in the book that people will learn as well.

20:34 Raman Seghal

So I think just to my previous point. I think building a learning habit every day is essential for people. And it doesn't have to be a heavy lift. So I think I give the example in the book, like my own learning time every day, is I read ten pages or for 10 minutes in the morning. I listen to one useful podcast a day. So I'll tune in to one of your podcasts while I'm driving, while I'm commuting, while I'm running, whatever. I often listen to two or three, just because even if I'm helping my wife in the kitchen or whatever, I'll have my headphones in. I'll just be absorbing content. And often I'll just make notes on Evernote, or whatever, to just like, oh, that's a good idea. I'm going to add that. And then I read, I often read like Seth Gordon's blog. He has a short blog. For a minute of your time is the best investment of time you'll ever have, just reading his blog. And all in there are a few of the blogs that I follow that I might read another. You take that in, and it's an active investment time, like, like active learning, 11-12 minutes, and then passive learning in 10 minutes, right. Think of how, and if you're listening, think how much time you burn overrunning meetings, talking on the phone too long, scrolling your social media, watching Netflix like you will be burning so much time in your day, if you can't make time for 11 minutes of active learning a day and some passive learning through a podcast or an audiobook. Like you've got bigger problems going on in your life. So I think that learning habit piece is like one of the fundamental things. Another kind of thing that I've found very useful that I talk about is, is working out what makes you happy. And I kind of coined the phrase, it's like my happiness hack. And so, I've journaled every day for the last six years. And this isn't a dear diary thing. I use a technique called a five-minute journal. I think I learned it from Tim Ferriss and on one of his shows. And so every day I write, you write what's going to make today great, what am I grateful for, and at the end of the day, what made today great, right? And actually, if you could have made today better, what would it what would have been different? And actually, that latter part is where the real gold is, right? And I reflect back every month, so every month, and I'll see this same stuff every month. And what I found really useful I think I have a list in the book of the types of things that make me happy, and it's not the stuff you think it's going to be, right? It is getting my car cleaned for $10, and seeing my car clean makes me happy. Right? You know, having a beer with a friend on a Friday makes me happy. Having a movie with my family and we sit in, you know smoosh together on the sofa makes me, it makes me happy, like, and the reason I know this now is because it's come up hundreds of times over six years. And obviously, these are specific to me in my life, and you know every single one of the listeners in yourself will have a different thing like, and it can like getting a shirt that fits me really well makes me happy. Like it's crazy.

24:00 Ian Altman

These could be things that almost never happen. Like for you, it could be Newcastle winning right, so things like that. 

24:00 Raman Seghal

Wow, so brutal!

24:13 Ian Altman.

Listen, I'm a Tottenham Spurs fan. We have the same problem right now. 

24:18 Raman Seghal

And you know, it's funny, you know, like you mentioned Newcastle. You know, one thing, my assumption would have been going to the game to watch my team play makes me happy. Actually, it wasn't. The thing that made me happy was the camaraderie with my friends and going for a beer afterward. That's actually the really good stuff. But if you don't write stuff down and you don't reflect, you don't see it, you kind of it's your blind spot that you don't see, and for me, I think none of that cost very much money. So you know, you have this you know, especially when, you know, you are fortunate like me and yourself where you're successful in career and start earning money and think, okay we're going to buy stuff and buying stuffs gonna make me happy. It actually doesn't. You might get in. Obviously, you remember telling me you had a Tesla at some point, you telling me all like you think you're putting the air conditioning on from the UK, in the US to freak your wife out, which is, which is funny. But don't get me wrong, like buying a nice car and living in a nice house, and all that kind of stuff is like, clearly, it's part of the journey. But for me, you build up a real picture of those kinds of little moments in life that make it.  I love a sunrise, right? Like it is, I mean, it sounds so soft. But you know, I was running in London this morning. I actually went running near Buckingham Palace in London this morning, and it was amazing. And then the sun was coming up, and there's this beautiful red sky. I was just running being like, like, maybe I'm just getting old, right? But what a gift. What a beautiful gift, man. It's absolutely magical and like, and that will make my journal tonight. Like what made today great? I got to see the sunrise near Buckingham Palace. That's pretty cool. You know? And so yeah, those are the kinds of things.

25:56 Ian Altman

It's interesting that you say those things because, for me, it's interesting. If we take a vacation with our family, it's all about the experience and the memory. It's not about the room. It's not about this and that, you know, we've got one of our kids has gotten some dietary issues, got some allergies. And so we'll go to places, and we'll say, Oh, was it amazing? I said the most amazing part is that that resort handles his allergies perfectly. So we don't have to worry about anything. Every place we go, we know they're gonna take care of it. And it's, yes, the food's great, the service is great, but it's that attention to detail that makes for a great experience. Or when one of my kids does something that I can tell, I remember having a battle with them when they were young about this, and now they've learned that lesson. And now they're paying it forward. And it's like, oh, this is fantastic. This is a great thing. So Raman, let me have you share with people what's the best way for people to learn more about what you're doing and stay in touch with you?

26:58 Raman Sehgal

Well, I actually, believe it or not, I have a RamanSehgal.com website, and everyone's going to misspell that, which is fine. So hopefully, it's in Ian's show notes.

27:07 Ian Altman

They’re not going to misspell it because we're gonna have it, we're going to have it on the screen right now. But it's R A M A N S E H G A L. I'm going to spell it again. Because I've known Raman for what, eight years. And I still often mess up the G and the H in his last name. So it's R A M A N S E H G A L.com. Right?

27:32 Raman Seghal

That's it. Yeah. And for people who are interested in buying the book, obviously, it's on Amazon and all that kind of stuff. But, you can get the first few chapters for free on the website as well. You just download it. And you know, genuinely my reason for doing the book was just to try and share some of the learnings and lessons that I think will help others that are in that position that I want to add, or actually, you know, for seasoned people are running businesses, or even professional sales teams or anything like that, I think it will be a timely reminder of how to make time to invest in yourself. And you know one thing I was going to mention, and I'm more conscious of it than ever of in your lessons, you know, just keeping your eyes open in life. And you know, like, you know, I'm in London at the minute and when I was running this morning, like the amount of people walk around glued to their phones, right. And when I met you, Ian,  if I had not been paying attention, if I had not come and said hello to you afterward, we would never have built this relationship over, you know, that time period. And, you know, it's a really actually, I mean, obviously, it is the most obvious example I've got because I can see your face, but you know, I had my head, you know, above my phone. I was interested in the content and actually went and came, and I think I ended up giving you a lift to the train station.

28:46 Ian Altman

Yeah, you gave me a lift to the train station. And then next time I was in New Castle, I messaged you, and we got together at the train station. We had a coffee at the train station.

29:00 Reman Seghal

That's right. I was flying to Vegas that day. So I think that's the other thing for people is like, it's very easy for busy people to be distracted by emails and devices and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, some of the best connections and opportunities that I've had in my career in life have come from just keeping my eyes open. Little things, like when you're in a car and ask the cabbie where the best place to eat is, right? Like, what we used to do, you know, in the olden days, is actually still as valuable now. So yeah, I'd encourage people. But I just wanted to, one thing before we're probably coming to an end soon, but I just want to say thank you to you, Ian. You have played a genuinely significant role in my success in terms of the, you know, the content you've put into the world and actually that we've taken on board and that we train our team to do now. And you know, to your point before, if you implement some of this stuff, you really feel the benefit of it. And so I'm very grateful for that and for being on the show again and, you know, being a friend, right? Like, it's awesome that we've got this relationship.

30:03 Ian Altman

So it's very nice of you to say. Let me do a quick recap of some key points that I think people can use and apply, and then I'll give you the opportunity for rebuttal to cover anything that I've missed. So first, make sure that from a business side, there is value in narrowing your niche and focusing on the right fit for clients, so you're not chasing everything. And it's a scary thing for some people to do, but you're almost always rewarded when you do that. Make sure that you're aligning your marketing message with that focus. So the example you gave of you can't say that you're focused on a certain niche, and then people go to your website, and it seems generic. That's going to be inconsistent. It doesn't seem believable. And some of those were keys to you growing 12 fold over over the years, which is remarkable. Build that culture or discipline of continuous learning. And that notion, I love how you talk about active versus passive learning, so that it's not just all something you have to be actively involved in. I do the same thing. I listen to podcasts when I'm at the gym or when I'm in the car, and of course, my wife gets in the car. She's like, can we put on some music? And, of course, I just want to listen to someone's podcast. And then, that idea of reflection on the things that make you happy and keeping your eyes open, I think, are all lessons that people can learn. And of course, make sure you pick up a copy of "The Floundering Founder" from Raman Sehgal, and I guarantee they're things that you're going to take away that you can learn. So what did I miss?

31:35 Raman Seghal

You did good, man. I mean, this is not your first time, right? This isn’t your first rodeo. I suppose you know, some of the things we talked about today are obviously covered in the book in a lot more detail, and you know, I do encourage people that are in that situation of going through feeling overwhelmed or just want to kind of get some sense of direction and stop and take stock like that’s the people this book is aimed at, and I genuinely hope you can pick up a copy and it helps you on your journey. And reach out and let me know if it is. Thanks again for having me on for a third time.

32:07 Ian Altman

Oh, of course, always a pleasure. I love watching your trajectory and how you continue to rise to new levels, and I'm sure people are going to get tremendous value from "The Floundering Founder." Raman Sehgal, thanks for joining me. 

Welcome to the Same Side Selling Podcast. I'm your host, Ian Altman. I received a phone call earlier today that prompted me to record this episode. The individual called, and unlike most of us, when we see a call from something that's obviously a cold call, most people don't answer. I answer because I want to hear what people are being taught, and hopefully, I can share some information with you that might help you in your business. After I said, Hello, there was this pause, like, I can't believe I got a human being. And they said, Hi, I want to speak to the person in charge of buying copiers and printers in your company. So what's wrong with that? Well, for starters, I responded and said, Oh, it's illegal in our company to print things. In fact, anyone who prints anything is immediately terminated. Are you behind it? And then they hung up. But the point is not how I handled it and being a little bit flip. I was just having fun with it, but instead, what are the lessons that you can learn from this that can actually help you in your business. 

What's wrong with asking for the person who makes the decision about X. Maybe you sell IT services, and you say, I want to speak with the person who makes the decision about IT services. When you do that, you're immediately making it about you and not about the customer. Because what you're conveying at that point is, I want to know the person to whom I can make a sale. You're not leading with what's in it for them. You're leading with what's in it for you. It's what I often refer to as axis displacement disorder. You believe the axis of the Earth has shifted, and the world now revolves around you. 

So there are a couple of things that happen. When you ask a question like, who makes a decision about this? Can you direct me to the person who buys this? For starters, if you reach the person who actually has that responsibility, they're probably not gonna admit it because if they don't know you, they don't want to talk to you anyhow. Do your research! You could probably figure out from looking at the company's website or doing some research on LinkedIn who it is. So you're immediately just lazy, so I don't want to deal with you at that point. The second thing is that when you ask that sort of question, it's immediately adversarial. Because what's the alternative? The alternative is, look, I'm sure the company wouldn't entrust a decision like this to you, so who is it that makes the decision about X, Y, or Z? It's immediately adversarial, so you're almost never going to get a good response. Here's what we need to realize, though.

02:59

This individual wasn't born thinking of asking that question. The darn shame is that somebody taught them to ask this question. Someone said, here's what you're going to do. I want you to call up people, and when they answer the phone, I want you to ask, who makes a decision about copiers and printers? Trust me, it's a brilliant approach. That's what they've been taught. And now they're doing it. And this poor person is dealing with rejection after rejection after rejection because they don't have a better way to deal with it. 

So how could they handle that instead? Well, they can start focusing on the problems that they solve really well, for people who need that. So that means that you have to do a little bit of research in advance, and you know what type of business you're calling into. So you're not just blindly calling people. Guess what? If you got their contact information, you probably also have their website. You can find out what type of business they are. So when you call, you can say, Oh, hi, so and so my name is Ian. I'm calling with this company, and when people reach out to us in your industry (you can specify the industry), it's usually because they're frustrated with their copiers and printers. It's either not doing this, or the costs are too high, or they're not reliable, or the quality isn't good enough. Does one of those stand out for you? Yeah, who's most directly impacted by that? Who's the person who has to deal with the most headaches associated with that? And now you're going to find out who the right person is. But you have to start by talking about the problems that you solve, not talking about what you want. You have to be more committed to the outcomes for the client, to solving something that's important for them than you do to actually making the sale. 

Right now, when you call up and say, Hey, who's the decision maker about this? Who's responsible for this or that? Who buys this? Who purchases that? You're telegraphing that all you care about is the sale. And then you wonder why it's adversarial. So that old-school person is like, Listen, what you got to do is you call up, and you ask who the decision maker is. Guess what? Stop listening to that person. They're not helping you. They're not advancing your career or helping you achieve your goals in any way whatsoever. 

Instead, what you want to do is lead with those problems you solve. But what does that mean? It means that you have to think about, intelligently, which markets are we calling into? You need to have discussions internally with sales and marketing that says, if I was someone who's running a law firm, if I was somebody who's running an enterprise software company if I was someone who's in this business or that business, what are the three most common problems that we're good at solving for that market? For someone in that role? For someone with these requirements, what are the problems that we solve better than anybody else? 

And then, on a given day of the week, you say, I'm going to call the people in this market, this market or that market, and I'm going to have this set pattern that I go through with people. And I'm going to say, look, we can't necessarily help everybody. The people in your industry who reach out to us are usually facing one of these two or three problems. Does one of those ring a bell for you? Because if it's not, then there's really not much for us to talk about. And now people will probably lean in and say, oh, I want to learn a little bit more about that. 

It's something that we covered in the Same Side Selling Academy in our Cold Outreach Playbook. It gives a whole formula for how do we deal with cold outreach, but the problem is, every time I'm on the receiving end of this cold outreach that is so poorly taught, it just makes me depressed. I feel bad for these people they have to deal with it. 

So next time you're doing cold outreach, don't start with these pedestrian, awful approaches. Instead, connect by first doing research about what industry you're calling after, and what types of roles, who would be in charge of that in your ideal customer, and then spend time talking through what are the problems that we solve for those people and lead with the problems you solve, rather than what it is you're trying to sell.

If there are other topics you think would be helpful, just drop me a note to Ian@IanAltman.com and see you next time on the Same Side Selling Podcast.

00:05 Ian Altman

Welcome to the Same Side Selling Podcast. I know it's a big surprise, I'm your host, Ian Altman. This week, I'm joined by a brilliant mind in the world of marketing and branding, Gair Maxwell. Gair is the author of this wonderful book, Big Little Legends. We’re going to talk about some of the biggest mistakes that people make when it comes to marketing and branding and some of the insights he shares in an absolutely brilliant book. So Gair, welcome to the program.

00:38 Gair Maxwell

Great to be here, Ian. Looking forward to diving in and being on the same side of this issue, which I know has tortured many leaders and marketing executives literally for centuries, dating back to maybe Benjamin Franklin and before him.

00:55 Ian Altman

I'm sure. I'm sure. It's, you know, that's something that's common for everybody. I want to tap into your expertise and start with this question, which is, what are the biggest mistakes or blind spots that you see that businesses make when it comes to their marketing and branding?

01:14 Gair Maxwell

Wow, where do we begin? How about with the obvious? How about with the obvious. The hypocrisy of leadership. Every business leader I talked to, Ian, and you probably have seen the same thing, they claim substantial differentiation really, really matters. And yet, the opportunity that leaders miss, in our experience in our research, is to create substantial differentiation simply by refusing to do what everybody else does in the category. So, what do I mean by that? Yeah. So what do I mean by that? So just, for example, let's use the old-fashioned radio ad, for example. Okay, the old-fashioned radio ad. We offer fast, friendly, reliable service at affordable prices. Our friendly and knowledgeable staff is here, Monday to Friday, nine till six, Saturday 10 to four for your shopping convenience. Where does that register on the personal give a shit-o-meter? Nowhere, that being said, b2b, they don't use radio ads even, but they have websites, home pages, about us sections. What do you see there? For more than 25 years, XYZ has been a leading-edge solution provider, and our integrated solutions and our unwavering commitment to customer satisfaction, coupled with our core values of integrity, creativity, and teamwork, lead us to become the outstanding performer in our field, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 

Ian, how else do we say it here on Same Side Selling? The words matter. So when you literally see website after website, we've studied it on our team, more than 7500. When they're all copy and paste, when they're all coming from the same marketing boilerplate, tell me that differentiation really matters. Well maybe it doesn't. And this is in my view, Ian, and you'll appreciate this, this is what happens when leaders abdicate their responsibility for creating long-term brands, and they put it in the hands of the marketers or the 22-year old social media intern. They don't take this seriously enough at the highest level of the company. I tell my CEO groups all the time marketing agencies and consultants don't build great brands; leaders do. This is a leadership issue. It's not a marketing issue once the leaders take it seriously, and really invest some of their time and attention, Ian, then I mean, that's the subject of our book. That's the subtitle, right? Big Little Legends: How do everyday leaders build irresistible brands. It worked for Steve Jobs, it worked for Richard Branson, what we identified. How does it work? If you're a small to medium-sized enterprise, you know, typically between 10 million and a billion dollars in annual revenue, how does it work in your space?

04:29 Ian Altman

Sure. And one of my favorites that I hear people use is in their marketing on their websites, they say things like, we're a full-service provider. Which I think is fantastic if all of your competitors claim to be partial service providers, but if they're not partial service providers, if, in fact, everyone else claims to be a full-service provider, then that doesn't really help you stand out. So you share some amazing stories in Big Little Legends. And it's stories of Big Little Legends, people who created these irresistible brands. What are some of the biggest lessons that you picked up when you were writing the book? 

05:16 Gair Maxwell 

Well, it’s really simple. It's understanding that you can't create. So, first of all, the legend destroys all competitors in every product service category. If you create the legend, you basically make everyone else irrelevant. Ask people in the motorcycle industry who've been trying to compete against Harley Davidson for years. Now, that might change down the road a little bit with shifting societal norms, but my point is, it's like Starbucks is the legend in the coffee business. There are legends out there. They line up, Ian. Every time Apple releases a brand new phone, have you noticed? They line up. And so what we try and decode is, how do you actually do that it begins with a baseline understanding. You can't create a legend without a story. It can't be done.

06:05 Ian Altman

I love that you mentioned that because one of the questions I have for you is this: how would you rate the relative importance of a company's products or services compared to the underlying stories that go with that product or service? Because I think a lot of companies place a huge emphasis on, our product does this, or our service has, you know, we have this capability, or our people have this educational background. And I would argue those things really don't matter, compared to the stories, but I'm open to being wrong. What do you think?

06:42 Gair Maxwell

No. All your quality, what you're bringing up, Ian, is what I hear a lot. It's the quality argument. We have top quality. The problem is 99 other competitors are also claiming they have top quality. So from the outside looking in, which is what brand is all about, brand is all about the perception and the reputation you're creating. Well, quality is nothing more than table stakes. So you can't create substantial differentiation off of the cue word. It's, I mean unless you've got truckloads of money and a lot of time on your side, go ahead, but I don't recommend it. And one of the stories in the book that really emphasizes, you know, the point, is the story of, it's one of Canada's greatest small business success stories. He comes from the worst category in the world, Ian, in terms of public perception and reputation. 

07:45 Ian Altman

Wait, he’s an author? And he hosts a podcast? 

07:52 Gair Maxwell

No. No. He's lower than consultants, politicians, and lawyers, and he sells used cars. Like you don't get much lower on the business credibility totem pole. And when I met Jim Gilbert in 2002, I'll never forget as long as I live the most profound words on this subject. He says it's not about the four wheels and the piece of tin. And my jaw nearly hit the floor. What do you mean? He says, and this is '02, Ian. He says everyone's got good cars. There are 22 car dealerships within a 100-kilometer radius. He says We've got to figure out what's going to separate us. So in chapter two, we do a deeper dive into this incredibly unlikely story. But the principles apply throughout, which is this, nothing really changed. And when I met Jim, he had five employees. He's got a little corner lot. It was tidy and clean. But he's doing like a million 2, a million 3 a year and annual revenue. So he's the small mom and pop he and his wife work in the business. In 2006, we changed. We didn't change the products. We didn't change the pricing. No, we changed the story. And we went on the air with 30-second vignettes and told stories of Canada's huggable car dealer. How he's the Romeo of Roadsters. The McDreamy of Drive. The Casanova of Customer Focus. Stop by Jim Gilbert's, get your daily dose of hugtonium. Designed to improve your love affair with your car and your libido. What were we not talking about, Ian? You weren't talking about the cars. No. For 15 years, this has been an incredible laboratory to understand how does the power of a great story positively influence buyer behavior in your favor? And then you juxtapose the never-ending story of Canada's huggable car dealer next to the competition. What are they talking about still 15 years later? Better quality, better selection, better service, better value, better prices. They're all about product, product, product. And we went in a completely different direction, understanding, and I talked about this in the book, if everybody zigs, you got to find the zag. And more often than not, you can find the zag by creating a larger-than-life story. So in effect, the huggable car dealer metaphorically became the Colonel Sanders of used cars in Atlantic, Canada. That's, you know, that's a business that employs 38 people does north of $50 million, biggest used car enterprise in all four Atlantic Canadian provinces. And it was the core origin story of where a lot of our theories around how do you successfully create big little legends from anywhere in any product service category. We had an incredible place to test these wild theories, and figure out over time, how this could really play out. That's why it took, what, nearly four years to research and write the book as well because we had to bring in all kinds of other examples to counterbalance what we were seeing firsthand there.

11:24 Ian Altman

Sure. And, Gair, I love the fact that you talk about this idea of a used car dealership. In fact, in Same Side Selling, one of the stories we talked about is actually, ironically, a used car organization called Member Car in the Washington DC area. And the story I tell is how I was basically on the verge of buying a, for lack of a better term, an exotic car. And the owner, this guy, David Wagglestein, David says, So are you planning to sell your current car and use this as like a daily driver? I said, Yeah. He says, okay, you need to understand. Here's what the maintenance is like on this car. You're going to have to spend, if you're driving it that way, you're going to spend $15,000 to $20,000 a year, just in maintenance. He said People drive these cars 2000 miles a year. They don't drive these cars, 15,000 miles a year, 12,000 miles a year. They're not designed for that. So I just want to make sure you know. And I was, contract set up, ready to sign. I didn't buy that car. He directed me to a new car that wasn't a car that they sold. He only sold used cars. And the net result was that he lost the sale of a high-end exotic car and probably only received a million 5 worth of referral business over the ensuing five years of people I referred to him and said, this guy you can trust. And we bought some vehicles from him for our family, bought three or four vehicles and someone said, Well, so gee, this car was in an accident, so you got a new car? How many places did you look at? I just went to one place. I didn't need to go anywhere else. Right. And it's interesting because their reputation is such that people say yeah, it's one of the few used car places where you know, if you have an issue, they're gonna stand behind it, regardless of what a contract says, regardless of what it says on the window, they're going to take care of you and make sure that you're in good hands. And that's something that I think is really a major distinction. So you use the example of this used car dealer in Canada. And so, I want to talk about some of the b2b type companies. So the companies who sell business to business, because a lot of our audience is people who sell one business to another business, where should people start when it comes to uncovering these stories? And I know you talked about in the book, but I want people to hear straight from your mouth. How do you start? How do you come up with these stories and the foundation for them that you can build a brand out of?

14:01 Gair Maxwell

Well, they all come, and I love that story you just shared as well, Ian, because what you just spoke of was was values. All right, like those values, and by the way, what's the most powerful form of advertising? Always has been, always will be. The most powerful form is word of mouth. So by sacrificing the one-time sale, this gentleman's values has created a ton of word of mouth and referrals generated by Ian Altman. Does that, am I understanding the issue? 

Ian Altman

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

The same holds true. So the exact same dynamic holds true in the world of b2b. So one of the things we talk about in chapter eight, for example, is the power of icons and symbols. In other words, symbols and rituals, right? And so for example, the huggable car dealer, if Walt Disney was to conceptualize a used car lot, this is what it looks like because there are hundreds of teddy bears, there's mascots, there's merry go rounds, there's a two kilometer nature trail to go walk your dog. So there are so many visual signals that are consistent with the values that you just described, trust, integrity, family, caring kindness. That's really who they are. Okay. Well, in a b2b world, in chapter eight, one of the best examples is they've got over 400 employees. They're all over the world. They're in the mining business. It doesn't get much more b2b than manufacturing and mining. They're called Raptor Mining, out of Edmonton, Alberta, but they've got offices, for instance, in Miami. They're in South America. They're in different parts of the world because mining is one of those far-flung enterprises. And when I met the CEO, Craig Harder. I was, and I had nothing to do with this, by the way. I showed up one day, and there he was. But I could see the magic he was creating. And based on the values that were already there, he went a step further. And that's the idea. You got to know who you are. And here's the question, this is going to challenge everyone today who's listening to this podcast; who are you beyond the products and services? Simon Sinek talks about it in "Start with Why." People don't buy what you do. They buy why you do it. And to honor Simon's work, I push it a little further. Yeah, well, who are you in terms of your identity? So if I say, Nike, right away, the brain goes, Oh, they're the just do it, guys. They know. Okay, Raptor Mining. What Craig did was brilliant. He built a whole culture and brand, around three letters, GSD. How do you interpret GSD? Right, it could be a Goal Setting Discussion. It could be Getting Shit Done. But then he takes it another step further, because he created a fictitious character. And the fictitious character is the Raptor CMO with the dinosaur mask. And I'll never ever forget, for as long as I live, he and I are doing a Facebook live segment from his boardroom a few years back. And he's got the dinosaur mask on. And the reason is because the Toronto Raptors were in the, you know, right in the depths of a big playoff run in the NBA. So it was, it was great in Canada. Let's talk about the Raptors. Here's the Raptor. He's got the dinosaur mask on. Ian. And I'll never forget that deadpan thing when I asked him about what he feels about the Raptors and their chances in the NBA playoffs and, and he's sitting there with a goofy mask on and those gloves with the big, you know, and he said, Well, he says, you know, people may or may not know it, but we've been around for like the last 66 million years. And we're very familiar with what it takes and blah, blah, blah, and I cracked up But that's my point. Every post he puts on LinkedIn, every video that goes out on YouTube or on Instagram, and the Raptor CMO is out there, inside their, you know, machine shop or out there in the field with one of those great big payloader. What are people noticing? They're noticing symbolic thought, which is how you communicate the power of a story. You see, Pittsburgh Steeler fans, Ian, are very familiar with the power of symbolic thought. But it goes to golf. What tournament, more than any other tournament, does the pro golfer wanna win? It's the Masters. Why? And fundamentally, what is it, Ian? It's a green piece of cloth.

19:17 Ian Altman

Yeah, but, but it's the story behind that cloth. So, so where if somebody is trying to initiate what you call in the book, being your own media company. So you say, in the book, you have to be your own media company. What are a couple of things that people should start with today that will help them down that path of becoming their own media company?

19:48 Gair Maxwell

I think it starts with a strategic recognition that first, you figure out your identity. Because there's no sense in my view, and this is somewhat controversial, I don't think there's a whole lot of sense in blasting out a bunch of content all over social media if you can't anchor it to a brand identity. And basically, you've got two to six words to own that identity with. Nike is a great universal example. What are the three words at the end? Just helped me out. Nike: just do it. Right? And Nike's brand valuation annually is more than double their top four competitors combined. Okay, so if you're your own media company, let's use, in my view, the best in the world right now. One of the best is Red Bull. So when I say Red Bull, what's the whole thing anchored to? Red Bull gives you wings. Great. Sure. But Red Bull, at its heart, is a media company that happens to sell an energy drink. And then the book in chapter nine, we pinpoint the exact day that's consistent through all 12 chapters. Where did the world tilt on its axis for some of these legendary brands? For Red Bull, it happened when they created their own magazine at the Monaco Grand Prix as part of the Formula One thing, but since then, they’ve really become a media company that just happens to sell an energy drink. Okay, great. That's great for Red Bull. How do you do it if you're a b2b company on a shoestring budget? That's the issue. Right? 

21:28 Ian Altman

So, where should that where should people start? Because right now, I guarantee there are people saying, oh, yeah, I want to be like Nike, I want to be like Red Bull. Those are consumer brands. I'm a b2b space. Okay. The Raptors, I'm probably not going to put on a costume. What were incremental steps? What are a couple of ways that leaders can think about this idea of establishing their brand, make it so they're competing head and shoulders above the biggest in their field, where do they start?

22:00 Gair Maxwell

So let's go away from anything perceived as goofy, gimmicky, or silly. Let's just go totally into something, and I will always bring it back. And I do this in my consulting work all the time, Ian. Let's bring it back to values. Now, in the case of Craig Harder, from Raptor Mining, playfulness is one of his core values. So that makes sense. Right? Let's go to a company called Thermal Wood Canada. And I love this example. And I love your question because it illustrates well, what do you do if you're not that extrovert, okay. So Bob Lennon is the chief architect the, you know, of Thermal Wood Canada, and they're in an extremely niche category Ian. They manufacture thermally modified wood, like, this is a rare space to be in. They sell to people all over the world. They're based in northern New Brunswick. And the two words that the whole brand is anchored to are northern heat. So metaphorically, it's about people, you know, bringing the heat, making a difference, that type of thing. Now, Bob is not that guy. Like I said, he's an engineer by background, but you know what? He is big. And I mean, big community guy. His thing is all about community. So he does a thing. He does a show. Every Friday, it's called the Northern Heat Report. And what does he do, Ian? His entire focus is on people in northern New Brunswick or other parts of the Maritimes who are doing great things for the community. How many stories can you tell on a weekly basis, whether it's the SPCA, Junior Achievement, Chamber of Commerce, local musicians keep going, Ian, how, how many stories can you spin out of this? 

24:03 Ian Altman

Sure. You could spin as many as you like. 

24:06

You can go forever. I couldn't believe it. Two weeks ago, on my feed, I saw on Bob Lennon's Northern Heat Report that pro basketball is coming to his town. And it's important for me to say this, I didn't read that in a newspaper, or hear it on the radio. Where did I see it? Because Bob Lennon is the media. He's a media company that happens to manufacture thermally modified wood. And I mean, you're doing the same thing, Ian. You're you've created with what you're doing with your podcast and everything. You're the media company that happens to be in the sales consulting business.

24:52 Ian Altman

Well, I think part of it part of it Gair, if I think about it is this notion of making it so that the story sometimes is a case study about your company. Sometimes it's sharing stories about things that are relevant to your customers that might have nothing to do with what you sell. So oftentimes, I share things that have nothing to do with Same Side Selling, per se, but its things that people in the world of Same Side Selling are going to want to hear about or know about that will help them. There's a reason why, in the Same Side Selling Academy, we have a whole section called outside experts, and it's people who have content that would be complementary, that isn't necessarily sales-driven or marketing-driven, but it's more, how do you help motivate your team? How do you align with what's important to your customers and things like that that would be relevant to them? And it sounds like that notion of if you're trying to create these stories, you want to talk about your customers, you want to talk about the community that you serve, more so than talking about your own products and services. Because I think what moves the needle is someone says, Wow, that customer really had something great. And I think that's the thing that oftentimes gets missed is this notion that anytime you tell a story about a customer, the customer or client needs to be the hero of the story, not your company. So I'm curious, your thoughts on that? 

26:29 Gair Maxwell

Yeah. Totally. So go back to where we were earlier; if it's not about the four wheels and the piece of tin, everyone's got their metaphorical equivalent. It's not about your products and services. As soon as it's about your products and services, you're not doing brand marketing anymore. You're doing an ad. You're doing direct marketing. These disciplines are wildly polar opposite. There's direct marketing, the late-night infomercial, the cold call, the RFP, I get it, spammy emails, that's direct marketing, right? Brand marketing is not about driving traffic and sales. It's about creating community and a reputation, like the guy you described earlier. Right? And so, in brand marketing, you want to be at the forefront of creating conversations and a community around something much bigger outside your product and service. Can it be your customer? Yes. Let's use Nike as the universal example. Did they not weigh in with content related to inspiring Americans to get out to the vote? I think they did that. Right? Did they not pick up the torch in terms of the Colin Kaepernick thing? Absolutely. That had nothing to do with shoes, everything to do with values. Now people can question the values. They can debate the values are all day long. Right? But Nike knows who they are. They are cutting edge. They are, they're all about initiative. They've never backed down in terms of taking a stand in those types of, you know, with those types of issues. But my point is that Ian, is that you can be that, you can be the Pittsburgh Steelers, you can be Masters, you can be the Raptor Mining guy with his dinosaur. You got to know who you are. You got to step into your story. And it can't be about your products and services. It just can't be as soon as it goes there, you're in the category mosh pit with everybody else.

28:36 Ian Altman

So Gair, what's the best way for people to connect with you and learn more about what you're doing? 

28:42 Gair Maxwell

Well, I, and I thank you, Ian. I'm the easiest guy to find online because of the unique spelling of my first name, which is Gair. You're on the air with Gair, used to have hair, once worked with Rick Flair. So Gair. Everything's on the website, but also we walk our own talk in that sense. We do a program called Leaders and Legends. It's our own little Netflix-style approach. About 90 plus percent of the episodes are on video. And, we give it all away for free because we believe that this future that we're all kind of, you know, getting acquainted with in terms of let's face it, no one, Ian, no one, I got the prop right here. No one's racing out to build brands through platforms like this anymore. The Yellow Pages dude ain't coming back. We've gone from Yellow Pages to YouTube, both literally and metaphorically. And would you believe, Ian, more than 95% of b2b companies, and I've seen the websites, and this is not an internet stat, this is my stat, more than 95% don't even have a YouTube channel, and if they do then there's nothing that's been posted since, you know, a year or two years ago. In other words, brand building now, and that's why I'm glad you, you know, we're trying to be the model. So if people really want to study how it's done, and I'm not saying we're perfect. We're far from it, but we are consistent. So we put out Leaders and Legends every second Wednesday. Bob Lennon does his thing every Friday. See what I mean? Like, you're running a media company now. We're in the media business.

30:30 Ian Altman

So Gair, let me do a quick 30-second or so recap of some of the key points for people. And then I'll give you an opportunity for rebuttal to cover what I missed. Okay, so we need to make sure that as leaders, we're not abdicating responsibility for establishing the brand, not handing off to some junior person marketing, but building a brand based on values. Stories outweigh products or services. So you need to make sure that it's about the story. It's not about listing your features and benefits because the reality is nobody cares. You need to make sure that you're emphasizing in your business how important it is to become a media company. And you want to make sure that as part of that, you're conveying your values and your big ideas, not necessarily conveying just your value, but your values as a business and the big ideas that people can get around. So yeah, what did I miss when it comes to this idea in Big Little Legends?

31:27 Gair Maxwell

Yeah, you really nailed it. Now I'll wrap it up with this, Ian, it's, you can go all the way to America's favorite minor league baseball team, the Savannah Bananas, which has a Tiktok following bigger than any major league team in baseball, okay?  And Jesse Cole wears a yellow tux and a top hat seven days a week. Or you can go across the Atlantic Ocean to the old course at St. Andrews, Scotland. Right? Which you got to book more than a year in advance to get a tee time. What we did with Big Little Legends was show both sides of the spectrum using the lessons of history because the further back you can look, the farther ahead you can see. So Big Little Legends, more than anything was a statement, hopefully, about the power of vision, and how the possibilities are so much bigger when you recognize whether you're packing a minor league ballpark in Savannah, Georgia, or you're getting, you know, tee-off times booked a year in advance at St. Andrews, Scotland, the dynamics are all the same. 

32:36 Ian Altman

Gair, thanks for joining me and for the audience, I look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the Same Side Selling Podcast. So long.

Welcome to the Same Side Selling Podcast. I'm your host, Ian Altman.

A number of years ago, someone approached me and asked me about integrity-based selling. And I looked at that person after I thought for a second, and I said, You know what, if you have to ask, we're probably not going to be a good fit for one another. And I want to take time on this episode to talk about why selling with integrity matters. 

We were recently on vacation with my family, and it's one of our favorite properties. We own a piece of property there. And so we love going to this resort. In fact, we were just there six months prior, and we were back there again over the December holidays. And each time when you go there, they have a sales department who wants to give you a pitch about what's new and what's going on to try and sell you more stuff, or more access, or more rights to the property than you currently have. And in fairness, when we first got there, keep in mind, this is still coming out of COVID; there were a number of different service issues and things like that. We were a couple days into our trip, and there were still some things that didn't go well. But being as though I'm in the sales industry, I always agree to these presentations because I might end up with a story that I can share with you, which is exactly what happened here. 

So, we met with this individual, and keep in mind that I want to give them an opportunity to make their presentation, and I value their time enough, to be honest with them. And selling with integrity means putting your client’s results ahead of your own desire to make a sale. Let me say that, again, integrity-based selling means putting your client’s results ahead of your desire to make a sale. So in the case of this individual, there are a number of things they said in our conversation. The guy's name was Mark, and I don't want to say what the resort is because, in general, this may not be something that is systemic, or maybe it is. But the individual started by saying, oh, and I don't get paid any commission. I get paid a really big salary, and I've been here for 25 years. Well, we happen to know that that property hasn't been there for 25 years. So I already know he's being dishonest. And I know enough about their sales organization to know that not only is this person not paid a generous salary, but I know that their salespeople are 100% commission-based. So before anything has happened, I know this is already somebody who is, shall we say, not exactly working at the highest level of integrity. 

So once again, I always set expectations early on in these meetings. And I said, how long do we need for the meeting, they said, 40 minutes. I say, great. You know what, I'll even give you up to an hour. At a half hour through our meeting, we still hadn't learned anything new about what's going on and you could tell he's just trying to set up to give me some, you know, kind of bait and switch type tactic because this person is not working with integrity. And I said, look, it's already been 30 minutes. I know I said I’d give you 40 minutes, even an hour if we need it. If there's something new you want to present, I want to make sure that you get to that because we're not going to stay here past an hour, I can assure you that. He said, no, I totally understand. And I said to him, Look, we haven't had a great experience. So if we were going to make an initial investment in this resort, now wouldn't be the time. And I respect your time enough that I don't want to waste your time if I know just this isn't the right time for us. 

And so, instead of appreciating that, when he did is he started to get hostile. I mean, it was almost that of a sitcom. And of course, I'm thinking it's funny. My wife's getting a little perturbed about it, but I'm just laughing internally because what I'm noticing is he's using tactics that were probably taught in the 70s or 80s. And in fact, at one point, I said, look, we're done. We just need to move on. I wish you the best in what you're doing. But we don't want to spend another moment here on our vacation. So he brings his manager Kyle in. And Kyle tried to use a tactic, which is to put the individual on the defensive. And Kyle says, well, we're not going to do this if you're going to come in and be rude to us. And I said, Kyle, all I'm doing is trying to be honest and transparent with you. You guys might want to try the same thing. Because I knew what tactic he was trying to play, and I really didn't want to engage in that sort of a game. 

So the point of this is not that they were being rude or nasty, which they were and there's really no reason to do that in any sales environment. But here's the effect that they didn't think about. It’s not just about being dishonest. If you crossed the line with an existing client, especially, then what you've just done is turn your greatest potential referral source into an adversary. You've turned your greatest referral source into a potential detractor. So what happened is during the rest of the week, we would run into people at the pool, at the beach, at restaurants, and based on the wristbands that you wear at the property, you can tell who's an owner and who isn't an owner. And people would say, oh, did you go to the sales meeting this time? I say, Yeah, I did. And they’re like, oh, it was the worst thing ever. In fact, we're here with some friends who were interested in buying here, and after the briefing that I had, I told our friends not to go there. I thought that was fascinating, not only because that was their story, but we were there with friends who actually said they wanted to learn more about the property, and after the meeting, I said, I won't subject you to that. You don't want to have that type of experience.

Now that's with existing customers. How do you think that happens when it's a potential customer? The potential customer now tells people, oh, you don't want to deal with that company because these people are dishonest. They're deceptive. And what's more interesting is when I look at the reviews for the property, the reviews are very consistent. People say, oh, the food is amazing, the service is incredible, the grounds are impeccable, but don't go to a sales presentation there. Whatever they offer you, it's not worth it. It's just horrible. So instead of getting across-the-board five-star reviews, there are all these ones and two-star reviews from people just citing how bad the sales experience is. Now, if there were one or two reviews, you would think, well, management just doesn't know. But when you start to see a pattern of these, what happens is you realize that management might be complicit in that activity. All of a sudden, what they're saying is, it's okay if these guys are dishonest if they turn our greatest referral sources into detractors. That's okay, as long as we're still getting the sale, which isn't okay at all. 

And so what you need to think about in your sales environment is, are you doing the best you can to create a positive experience across the board in your organization, or are you doing things that might make it so that you have a bad reputation so people who might otherwise want to do business with you wouldn't do business with you and your existing customers wouldn't refer someone else to you? 

So how do you overcome that? Well, what they could have said is when I said I didn't have these great experiences, a well-trained sales professional would have said, You know what, Mr. Altman, I'm sorry, you didn't have a great experience. In fact, I don't want to talk to you about anything new. Let me see what I can do to make sure you have a great experience, and then I want to check back with you later in the week. And if we've recovered and made it, so it's a positive experience, I'd love to come briefly you about the property. But right now, first and foremost, we want to make sure you have a great experience. I probably would have thought to myself, wow, you know what, they're really committed to this thing, and I would have had a totally different outlook or perspective. 

So right there, what I'm doing is realizing if the time isn't right, I'm better off deferring to a future time than trying to play, in essence, a bad hand. It's almost like in poker if you get dealt terrible cards, and you can tell other players in the game, have been dealt good cards, and now, things come up or that aren't in your favor on the board, and you just keep pressing it. The people with a good hand are going to win, and you're going to be decimated. So you can't keep playing a bad hand once it's been dealt to you. 

The other thing you need to realize is that if there's someone on your team who is not putting the customer first, and that doesn't mean that the customer first at the expense of your values in your company, but instead making sure the customer always feels like their outcome is the ultimate goal, then take the time to speak with those individuals to make sure that you get everyone on the same side, achieving the same goal rather than being in an adversarial position. As soon as you take that step where it becomes adversarial, you've lost. You just may not know it yet. 

Tune in next week for the next Same Side Selling Podcast. For now, I'm Ian Altman. See you again soon.