Welcome to the Same Side Selling Podcast. I'm your host, Ian Altman. Today's topic is, what separates the top performers from the people who just kind of skate by? And the thing I want to focus on today is practice, and not just whether you do it or not, but rather, what type of practice generates the greatest results. 

In the Same Side Selling Academy, I work with hundreds of top-performing sales professionals, yet some outperform the others in the group. What I find is that they have a very consistent process for how they practice on a routine basis. 

So first, what are the things that people do that they shouldn't be doing? What are their biggest mistakes? Well, in every profession, the top performers tend to practice more than the average performers. So, think about the best hitter in baseball, the best pitcher, the best basketball player, the person who's the best at free throws, the first violin in the symphony. These are all people who we all recognize as putting in the extra time to practice the fundamentals. My friend, Allen Stein Jr, who is a fellow speaker, speaks about his experience with the late Kobe Bryant, and he talks about his commitment to exercise and practicing the fundamentals over and over again, even when he was at the top of his game. So, the first big mistake is when I talk to sales professionals who say, well, I meet with clients all the time, so I don't need to practice. I'm already really good at it. And that's a huge mistake because what you're acknowledging at that point is that you would much rather make a mistake with a real client when it matters than to practice with a colleague when you can learn. 

The second big mistake that people make is when they do actually take the time to practice, is they do what I call Groundhog Day practice. And that means that they practice the same scenario over and over again. And to make matters worse, they practice that same scenario over and over again with the same person. Which means they get really good at dealing with that one scenario with that one individual. It's not a sustainable model unless you know that the person you're practicing with is going to become a client of yours in the near future. Then maybe it makes sense. Otherwise, not so much. 

The other mistake that people make is they either practice sessions that are too short or too long. So, either they go forward in a practice session that is about three minutes long. Like, no sales meeting has ever been that short. Or they say, okay, we're going to roleplay the scenario for the next half hour, 40 minutes. Well, the problem with that approach is that what we want to do is we want to practice individual segments or parts of our interactions. Think about it. If you were practicing for a Broadway show, you wouldn't just practice from the first scene to the last scene over and over again. No, they practice individual scenes and get the blocking and staging and all the nuances in each of those. At the very end, they pull everything together. But all their practice is at individual levels. It's just like hitters. They don't just sit up there and practice the entire game. They say, okay, so here's a scenario, we have a runner on second, it's a tie game, what do you want to do? And that hitter is just going to hit balls to the opposite field all day long to advance the runner. But they don't practice just hitting the ball out of the park every swing. That's not a practical way to practice. 

The last mistake that people make is that when they practice, they don't have results or a goal in mind. Meaning that what they do is they say, oh, yeah, we're going to practice. We're going to roleplay. And if I ask them, What's your goal? How are you evaluating what you're doing? They say, well, I don't know someone told us to practice, so I guess that's what we're doing. We need a better approach for doing this. And this is something that, in the Same Side Selling Academy, we built something called Same Side Improv. In Same Side Selling Improv, we used to have it as a card game. It was a physical card game, like a deck of cards, and you would pick different cards. In today's day and age, we made it so that it's all digital. So, you don't need to have a deck of cards with you. The cards don't get worn out. It's always a fresh deck, and you can practice different scenarios. The idea is that we're practicing real-world situations. So, the first thing we do is get three different players involved. So, for every round of Same Side Improv, we have a salesperson, we have someone playing the role of the customer, and then we have an observer. The reason why is the observer is there to take notes and give us feedback. Because the other two people are living in the moment, they might forget or overlook things. I will tell you; the observer consistently is the person who says they learn the most in each round. We make sure that we're not having the same scenario over and over again. So, the first thing we do is say, okay, paint a picture of a real client situation you have right now. And so and so gets to play the customer. And whoever is playing, the customer now picks one or more of these Same Side Improv secret cards. And the secret cards will say things like, you don't trust vendors. You failed trying to implement this before. You're trying to get free information. You're only focused on price. There's executive pressure to solve this. There are 20 some odd, different variations of these secret cards. And so, the person playing the customer plays those attributes for each round. That way, you're getting a different situation and a different customer each time, even if it's somebody you're familiar with. But they're playing the role that is conveyed through those cards. 

We want to make sure we get that third-party feedback, but we need to have a goal in mind. So, the goal is that what we do in the Same Side Improv world is we focus on the Same Side quadrants. This method that I teach in Same Side Selling, which is all about how we collect information during these prospect meetings. This is how we take our notes. The upper left quadrant is where we take notes about the issue or what it is the clients trying to solve. In the upper right quadrant, we take notes about impact and importance, namely, what happens if they don't solve it? And how important is this compared to other things on their plate? And the lower left quadrant, we take notes about results. Meaning, what does success look like down the road? In the lower right quadrant, we take notes about who else is impacted or who else do we need to include in the process? The idea is that you're measured based on how well you extract the information and ask questions to unpack that information about the four quadrants. 

Now we also have a section in Same Side Improv that talks about different skills and scenarios. Meaning you might have a section where you say, okay, I just want you to practice setting up a meeting to set expectations. I want you to practice the client vision pyramid, which is a way for us to show how we're differentiated from the competition in a non-threatening way. We may practice how do we deal with someone who says I already have an existing vendor. So, these are little micro setups that you get to practice those specific scenarios. Just like running a certain play in basketball or practicing a certain section of the symphony, we're practicing those pieces that are most likely to come up.

The last two really important components are to have fun because sometimes people will take it way too seriously, and if you're not laughing and having fun with some of this stuff, you are kind of missing the point. And make sure that you don't always end up with a positive outcome. Meaning, it's not always, oh, yes, I'd love to do business with you. This is great. In fact, at least a third of the time, the conclusion should be, I don't think they're a good prospect for us because that's reality. More often than not, businesses spend too much time focusing on the wrong opportunities that will not generate results for your business. So, we want to make sure that we're providing a realistic environment so that as you ask them questions, you start to learn, you know what, that's not a situation that we want to be in. 

You don't have to use Same Side Improv. You can use whatever tools you want. But make sure that you have those different elements. Make sure that you have a variety of scenarios that come up. Make sure that you have these secrets that you don't even know about the person playing the customer mixes into each scenario so that you're not facing the same thing over and over again. Get feedback from a third party so that you're not just, in the moment, trying to remember what you saw, but an observer is taking notes and giving you feedback at the end of the session. 

A typical scenario that works well for us is about a 10-minute interaction. And then you get feedback from each party, starting with the observer, then from the person playing the customer, and finally from the salesperson on what they learn. The idea is not to be hypercritical, but to say here are the couple of things that I thought you did really well, and here's one thing that I was thinking maybe you could do differently next time. And then we learn from that experience. 

 See, this is the way we develop top-performing teams because then when you're in front of a client, and the client starts asking questions or making statements, that happen to be the same statements you make when you have the card that says, I don't trust vendors, you can say, I get the sense that maybe you haven't had a great experience in the past with other vendors. What are the two or three things that we can show you so you'll feel confident that you're not going to have that same problem in dealing with us? And that way, you're prepared to deal with the situation, so you're not making mistakes when it counts, but instead, you're practicing and learning so that when it really counts, you're prepared to deliver great results. 

If there are additional topics you'd like to see on the Same Side Selling Podcast, just drop me a note to [email protected], and we'll see you next time on the Same Side Selling Podcast.

Welcome to the Same Side Selling podcast. I'm your host, Ian Altman. 

Today's episode is time and materials/hourly billing versus fixed price billing. Which one is right for your business? 

See, one of the most common ways that people bill is for their time. So, attorneys typically charge you by the hour, accountants often charge by the hour, consultants often charge by the hour, babysitters charge by the hour, security guards charge by the hour. So, is charging by the hour the right thing for your business? 

What I'd like you to think about is this, when you charge by the hour are you selling results or resources?

See, if you charge by the hour, what you're doing with your client is saying, I don't know how much effort this is going to take, so I'm going to charge you for my time and my people's time based on an hourly rate. This means you, as the client, are absorbing the risk for this opportunity. This means I can generally charge some multiple of what it actually costs me for that and not more. 

Now, some organizations fall into the trap of something really dangerous -- probably the worst contract type you can possibly have in business. And that is the contract type that is time and materials not to exceed. What that means is that the client will say to you, for example, well, we don't want to take all this risk because we don't know how much it is going to cost. So, we want you to cap this project, let's say at 100 hours. And just for simplicity's sake, we're going to say that you're charging $200 an hour. One hundred hours would be $20,000. Now, if you do the job in fewer hours than they pay you just for those hours you bill, and if the job takes you more than 100 hours, then you max out because you cannot exceed $20,000. So, does that make sense? And when you're in that position, what you're doing and what you're telling your client is, hey, look, if we are more efficient. We do the job in less time, then we're just going to charge you for those hours, but if it takes us more time, then we're going to cut our margins, because we're only going to charge you up to that limit even if it takes us two or three times as much. 

When you're in that situation, what you want to do is say, look, if you want time materials not to exceed, we're happy to do that on a fixed-fee basis. Because if you're wanting to do time and materials not to exceed, then do the project on a fixed-fee basis, and define the criteria very specifically. So that way when you're done, you know you're billing $20,000. If it takes you 40 hours, it's $20,000. If it takes you 90 hours it is $20,000. If it takes you 120 hours it is $20,000. 

What you're doing in that case is you are absorbing the risk by doing it on a fixed fee basis. But you're also getting the upside, if it turns out in your favor. As opposed to if you do time and materials not to exceed, then you're actually locking yourself in where you could never make more than $20,000, you can definitely make less than $20,000, which isn't a good deal for your business. 

So, when does time and materials or hourly billing make sense and when doesn't it? If you're in the world of litigation, litigators often charged by the hour, because you could have a really straightforward case. But if the opposing counsel, if the other side is not easy to deal with, it could take you three times as long to do the job, even if you did everything right on your end. So, if there are a great deal of unknowns, if you're not necessarily sure what the level of effort is, then time and materials is a way for you to share the risk with your client. You're giving them an honest assessment of what you think that will take. They're assuming some of the risks that if it takes longer, they're going to pay more. Even if they don't tell you there's a time and materials not to exceed, at a certain level they say we're not going to keep paying you for this. 

The reason why it works for a security guard is because it's not like the security guard can charge a premium if nothing happens, or charge more if something does happen. Instead, it's just look I need a person there for this amount of time.

For the babysitter they might charge you by the hour, and you're having to pay by the hour because look, you watch my children for five hours and kept them safe. I'm paying you for the five hours. 

But what if a chef charged you by the hour? What if you went to the restaurant and they said, well, look, we're going to charge you by the minute for us to prepare your meal. Well, that'd be crazy because you don't want the resource and the effort of them cooking your meal, you want to pay for the actual meal, and know you're getting what you're looking for. 

It's the same thing in business. So, where you have complex opportunities, what I suggest is that you break those types of projects into smaller incremental deliverables that you can do on a fixed fee basis. See, it's much easier to have a conversation with a client that says, we're going to perform this task for you. We're going to get you to this outcome. In exchange for doing that our fee is X dollars. So, someone can make an informed decision and say, is this outcome worth $20,000? Nobody has ever thought to themselves, man, you know, what I really need is I need 12 and a half hours of somebody who's an IT consultant. I need 12 and a half hours of a software developer. 

When you bill by the hour, the problem is that you've commoditized yourself, because you're saying, well, I'm just going to expend some effort and you're going to pay for those hours. There's no better way to commoditize yourself, then to reduce everything down to an hourly billing rate. In fact, body shops, as they are commonly referred to in the industry, which is IT companies that sell resources, often will be selling the same resource as their competitors, and the only difference is how much they're marking them up. So, in some cases, it's the exact same human being that they're both presenting to the end customer. They've entirely commoditized themselves. Instead of saying, well, for this project, we're going to have a project manager, we're going to have two developers, and we're going to have a documentation expert, and they're gonna work on your project, and over the course of the quarter, they're going to deliver this functionality for you, and we're going to charge $100,000 to deliver that. Well, now the client just has to decide, is it worth $100,000 for me to get that outcome? 

And you might think, well, how's it going to work in a competitive situation? Well, let's say one, one company comes in and says, look, we're going to charge $150 an hour, we believe it's going to take about 200 hours. So, what's that? That's about $30,000. You can come in and say we will do this on a fixed-fee basis, it doesn't matter how long it's going to take. We're going to deliver these specific outcomes for you, these results, this is it's going to look like in the end. We're going to charge $36,000. Now, the client what they have to think is, well, what's the risk that other firm going over? Plus, you're confident enough to bid things on a fixed-fee basis. What it also does is when you start billing things on a fixed-fee basis, it incentivizes efficiency. If you're billing by the hour, you actually are penalized if your team is more innovative. If you come up with more creative ways to get things done more efficiently, you actually lose money. As opposed to an organization that actually gets paid on a fixed-fee basis, they start working together and say how can we do this faster? And think about it this way, is it better for your client to get the results faster or over a longer period of time? So, your client would probably rather get the results faster and if you delivered it faster in a time and materials manner, you might actually get paid less for something more valuable to them. 

So, the next time you're looking at business opportunities, and you're thinking, well, maybe we should charge by the hour, if you have no control whatsoever over the other side and you're okay being commoditized then definitely bill by the hour. But if you're confident what you can deliver, if you want to stand out and not compete on purely price and selling a resource, then consider looking at fixed-fee options. And please, by all means, never get sucked into the vortex of evil and bid this notion of time and materials not to exceed. That's the worst deal you can get. 

I look forward to having you join me on the next episode of the Same Side Selling podcast. If there are episodes that you'd like me to talk about or topics you'd like me to cover, just drop me a note to [email protected]. See you next time.

Hi, it's Ian Altman, and welcome to another episode of the Same Side Selling podcast. 

Today's episode topic is why making more cold calls probably is not the answer to your problems. 

Very often, what I hear from people is they say my reps aren't making enough calls. And so, management feels that they're not getting enough business, the reps aren't making enough calls, so what they tell them is, I want everybody to be on the phone more. I want people sending more cold outreach. I want to use LinkedIn to find anybody who could possibly care about what we sell. I want you to reach out to your network. I want you to have more meetings, more phone calls, more interactions. 

Here's what I want you to consider, if in fact, you have a message that's really compelling, then people are probably going to start finding you. So instead of reaching out with initial cold calls, maybe you should try something else. Think of it this way, gee, I'm not getting enough business from the people I'm calling, so I'm going to call more people. 

Now, I'm not a fisherman, but what I do know is that one of my relatives loves fishing. Absolutely would like to do nothing more than fish. And so, I've talked to him, and I said, what's the secret to fishing? He said, well, first, you got to know what you're going after because depending upon what you're fishing for, you're going to use different methods and different bait. And I said, well, what do you mean, I mean, a worm's a worm, right? He said, well, depending on what fish are going after, a worm may not do it. You may need another fish. You may need live bait. You may need bait that isn't alive. Depending on what you're fishing for, there are different things that you use to attract that type of fish. 

It's the same thing in business. Too often, what happens is people just say, oh, I just need to do more of the same thing I've been doing that hasn't been generating results for us. And if we keep doing more of it, we're going to get better results. And the reality is, all that happens is you get diluted across more people who aren't necessarily interested in what it is that you do. 

So instead, what I want you to think about is kind of taking a step back. And the first thing you have to ask yourself is, who are my ideal clients? And the way you find that out is by defining, really well, what problems you solve. What I mean by that is very often what people say to me is, well, we're an IT services provider, or we're a software company, or we're in this expense reduction business. Great. That's all about what you do. What you have to think about instead is using a term that my buddy Bob London coined, find out what is your elevator rant. What would people complain about that you're really good at solving that maybe they haven't even thought about? Meaning, how would they describe, in essence, their symptoms that might be an indicator of a condition that you're really good at treating. 

So, if you're an IT services provider, and you're someone who maintains people's networks? Well, that's all good and well, but what you may want to say is, well, we focus on law firms who have trouble attracting and retaining top talent because their IT systems are antiquated. They feel like they're in the Stone Age, and it's tough to attract new modern thinking attorneys when your systems seem like they're from the late 80s or 90s. Now, that's the type of problem that you solve. 

So very often, when I'm helping companies accelerate their growth, the first thing we do is say, what's your message? What's your positioning? How is your company situated to attract interest and stand out from the competition? See, instead of just thinking about how do I have more cold outreach, the first thing we have to do is think about who are we fishing for? Who are we trying to attract, and what's our bait to do that? See if we don't have the right bait, and if we're not fishing in the right place, we're not going to catch the fish we're looking for. It's just that simple. Which isn't a bad metaphor for a guy who's not a fisherman, right? 

So, what we want to think about is how we can come up with that messaging? So first, the idea is that these elevator rants, in essence, the things your clients would complain about that you're really good at solving. Most businesses have six or seven of those. This is something that in our Same Side Selling Academy, we spend a lot of time with people on developing those elevator rants to attract your ideal clients. So, for example, let's say you're an architecture and design firm, you can say, well, we architect and design buildings and spaces, just like every single other architectural and design firm. Or you can say, well, people usually come to us when they've got complex logistics issues, and they need to design a space to facilitate all of their logistics business. Now we're getting more specific about the types of problems that you solve. 

Then we want to make sure that we're creating a message for people that differentiates us from other people. That's something we refer to as the Client Vision Pyramid. The idea of the Client Vision Pyramid is that we define the three levels of relationship that people might be looking for in our industry. So, for example, if I was an architecture and design firm, and I'm just using different examples here, if I was an architecture and design firm, I might say, well, and when people are looking for help in architecture and design, they're usually looking at one to three levels. At the base level, in our industry, are small, kind of generalists. They do all sorts of different buildings, not highly specialized. At the next level are large firms where everyone knows their name. They are usually combined with a great presentation. You know you're not getting those people on your project, but they often come up with a really impressive presentation, and they have a lot of different resources. At the highest level, kind of the pinnacle in our industry, these are people who specialize. Maybe they specialize in logistics and logistical operations, and how do they build facilities that make those operations run smoothly. And the idea is that those people will take the time to learn the ins and outs of exactly what you need. How you need your space to function, and then tailor it specifically for those needs to fit within a realistic budget. Which level you're looking for?

So, by defining those three levels of the Client Vision Pyramid, it makes it so that now we've attracted someone with something specific about the problems we solve. Now we've created some level of differentiation between what it is that we do and what it is the rest of the industry might do. And it creates that differentiation. 

Then what we need to do is disarm, to say, even though we have an amazing track record of helping people with those specific problems, I don't yet know if we can help you yet. This isn't some clever tactic. It just happens to be true. Before you have a conversation with somebody, you don't know if they're the right fit for you or if there might be some reason why they're not a good fit for you. That's totally okay.

So instead of taking the approach of I just need to call more people, have more meetings, do more cold outreach, take a step back. Think about what are the five or six different problems that you're good at solving. Then when you reach out, you describe here are the top two or three that I believe are going to resonate with this particular client. When you describe those, you're much more likely to pique their interest.

Instead of saying, here's what we do, which is likely going to respond with well, we already do that, or we already have some does that. Instead, if you describe the specific types of problems that you solve, they might be thinking to themselves, our current vendor doesn't solve that. We have someone who would be great if they could solve that, but they don't. Maybe I should talk to these people. Then as soon as we pique their interest, we say, well, when people are looking for help, they usually do one of these three levels, and we use the Client Vision Pyramid. And that way, we're focusing on the people we can help the most. 

See, in most businesses, it's not a lack of opportunities that causes growth to stall. Instead, it's a lack of the appropriate amount of time to spend on the right opportunities because you're spending too much time on the weak opportunities. 

So, the next time you hear someone in your office says, oh, we're just going to make more calls and have more meetings, that may be true if you're not talking to anybody. But more often than not, what you really need to do is step back, define that message, build that Client Vision Pyramid, and then when you have conversations with people, you'll be able to quickly stand out from the competition and attract the interest of people you can help the most. 

If there are additional topics you'd love to see on the Same Side Selling podcast, you can always drop me a note to [email protected] or, of course, visit SameSideSelling.com for more information to catch any of these episodes. See you next time.

00:04 Ian Altman

Welcome to the Same Side Selling Podcast. I'm Ian Altman, joined by Meridith Elliott Powell. Meridith, welcome once again.

00:12 Meridith Elliott Powell

Thank you. I'm looking forward to today's episode.

00:14 Ian Altman

Well, today's episodes is a direct result of emails we've gotten from people saying, how do I best use LinkedIn to connect with other people? And I figured that maybe you could start us off with the mistakes that people make when trying to use LinkedIn to connect.

00:30 Meridith Elliott Powell

Yeah, I think this is lucky for us and lucky for this podcast. There's a lot of mistakes that people make when they reach out on LinkedIn. I don't know what it is about social media that sort of turns off our self-awareness or empathy bone, but one of my favorites is mistakes people make is lack of doing research. You know, just before you would make sales call on anybody, you would bother to do the research. It's the same online. You need to read the profile. You need to know the blogs and the articles they've written, who they follow, where they went to school. You need to do those things so you can make an educated reach out. But also, so you don't put your foot in your mouth or do something stupid. I had somebody reach out to me that wanted to help train my staff and get my team ready and my company ready for succession planning. Now I own a lifestyle business. All of my support is contract labor. When I get ready to sunset this business, I am going to sunset it. I am not selling it or transitioning it to anybody else. So, the negative of that is not only did they not get a deal on reaching out, but they killed the opportunity for me to refer them any business.

01:44 Ian Altman

Yep, and that level of research. I get it often where people reach out to me and say, hey, have you ever considered writing a book? It's like, well, in fact, I have. It's done quite well. It's in its second edition. It'd be like someone asking you, have you considered writing a book? Like another one? And yeah, the things that are just awful. The other mistake that I see, so that first part, is a lack of research where people just haven't done the research. They come off looking foolish, and their reputation gets tarnished because they didn't do the work in advance. The second thing I find is people who, in essence, just share their own kind of hit list of services. So, they say, oh, do you need x, y, z, a, b, c? Do you need web development? PHP? Do you need, you know, database work? And it's like, just this litany of a list of topics. And what I find in that area is that all they're really doing is commoditizing themselves because they're not showing any differentiation. They're just, everything's a generic viewpoint. Are you seeing that also?

02:52 Meridith Elliott Powell

Oh, my gosh, I see that all the time. In fact, I've had somebody reach out to me in the last three days in a row because I haven't responded. And not only did they reach out and list their products, but then they reach out and say, just in case you missed my last message. You know, the chances are, if somebody didn't respond to you on LinkedIn, and you talked all about yourself, they didn't miss your last message. They're ignoring your last message because it's about you. It's not about me. You also don't have any idea which product would fit me. You're just throwing every product you sell at me. You know, I think really, Ian, what we're getting to is that when you sell on social media when you sell on LinkedIn, there's still the same practical sales strategies that apply for in-person apply for online. And you need to think about before you ever send a message, would you do this in person? And if the answer is no, don't do it.

03:52 Ian Altman

I love that. I love that you mentioned that because I think this is something that is a critical element, which is people forget that you're dealing with a human being on the other side of it. And they think I can use social media to generate some level of scale, but then through that process, what people forget is that human connection. So, they don't connect with any authenticity. So, imagine if you walked into a networking event, and as soon as you saw someone in front of you, instead of offering a pleasant greeting or asking about them, if you walked up to them and said, you need a database? They would throw their drink in your face. I mean, it's just awful. And instead of having any sort of genuine connection, they either use some deceptive practice, like, oh, I'm looking to build my network with other quality individuals. Well, people who know me, I have a shortcut. In LinkedIn, where I type four characters, and it responds to the individual and says, thanks so much for reaching out. What specifically inspired your connection? And the fascinating thing is that less than 5% of the people then respond to that. Because they don't really have a reason for connecting, they're just trying to pitch me something, and it's just a horrible approach to that. So, what could and should people be doing, that'll generate a better result?

05:19 Meridith Elliott Powell

Well, I think number one is, I think one of the best ways to sell on LinkedIn is, number one is to use your existing network. Go to those people who already know, like, and trust you and that you have invested in for them to make introductions and open doors for you. The warmer you can make it, the easier the transition is going to be. And that can lead to the conversation. So, I'd say number one, again, just like you do it in person, using those existing relationships.

05:52 Ian Altman

If you're in an in-person networking event, it would be totally reasonable for me to be at the event and say, oh, let me introduce you to Meridith. And now I can have that connection, and then you get, in essence, my social endorsement, just from that introduction. It's the same thing on LinkedIn. The other thing that I find is that too often, people talk about what it is that they do, rather than the types of problems they solve or describing the situations where they help other people. And so, they'll say, for example, oh, I'm a digital marketing agency, or I'm an insurance agent, or I'm a wealth management person. Instead of, if you're in wealth management, you might say something like, well, typically, I work with high-net-worth individuals on how to improve their tax efficiency, so they're not sending as much money to the government as they currently are. Well, then someone says, oh, yeah, I want to learn more about that, rather than, oh, you're a stockbroker. 

06:51 Meridith Elliott Powell

I think along with that, you know, inputting your problems out there with the problems that you solve, it's also using LinkedIn to build your reputation. I mean, I find by putting videos out there, putting articles out there that are of value, speaking to the problems that I solve, the difference I can make, it allows people to get to know me. And what happens is people end up reaching out to me, rather than me having to reach out to them.

07:18 Ian Altman

Yeah. And so, I think we've touched on this, and I kind of want to wrap it up here, and I want to summarize all this because I think it's key for people to understand. So, the big mistakes usually are one, people don't do their research. The second is they talk all about themselves. And the third is that when they're connecting to people, they're not doing it with authenticity. And instead, what we want to do, and I'll give you a chance for rebuttal to cover the things that I miss, but instead, what we want to do is we want to do our research in advance. We want to leverage those relationships we built where people already know like, and trust us to make introductions elsewhere. And I would also add, in addition to talking about the problems that we solve, we want to actively engage in communities of the kind of people we like to work with. Not pitching our services, but offering insight and offering value to those to those conversations without pitching anything. I find that often when I give away input and give away ideas, that's when people say, oh, are you available to come help our team? Are you available to speak at this event? Because I wasn't pitching it. I just saw a conversation where I can help, and I jumped in. Not in an, oh, I know better than you, but hey, if you considered doing this. I love how someone mentioned this approach. Have you considered this instead? So, what have I missed that people should also remember?

08:43 Meridith Elliott Powell

You know, I think I think you really nailed it. I think you got it all. The only thing I'm going to add is to think about the fact that this is a long game. You're not going to go on LinkedIn on Monday morning and post something and get the sale immediately. If you do, then that's a one-off. It's luck. Chances are, you are not going to keep that customer long-term. So, you're looking to invest, build a reputation, and remember, if you invest in people first, they'll ultimately invest in you.

09:09 Ian Altman

I love that. So, we will see you again on the next episode of the Same Side Selling Podcast. In the meantime, be sure to share this with other people that you think would benefit from it. And if there are topics you'd like to hear, much like this one, drop us a note, and we're happy to cover it. Till next time. Bye-bye.

SPEAKERS

Meridith Elliott Powell, Ian Altman

00:04 Ian Altman

Welcome to the Same Side Selling Podcast. I'm Ian Altman, joined by Meridith Elliott Powell. Welcome, Meridith.

00:11 Meridith Elliott Powell

Thanks. I'm looking forward to today.

00:13 Ian Altman

Well, and what we're going to talk about today is how do you know if you're wasting your time pursuing the wrong deal? And so, I'm going to turn the floor over to you first, in terms of what you see as the big mistakes that people make in pursuing the wrong deals.

00:33 Meridith Elliott Powell

Yeah, you know, if I had a dime for how much time salespeople spend going after the wrong deal, I would be far retired, and I wouldn't be doing this. I wouldn't be doing this podcast or working day in and day out. We are notorious for chasing the wrong deal. And I think one of the reasons we're notorious for it is because we're salespeople. We love the hunt; we love the chase. But the only thing worse than chasing the wrong deal is catching the wrong deal. So, I think number one is, you know you're chasing the wrong deal when you step back, and you look at it, and you really understand that this isn't in your target market. You're not talking to somebody who is the decision-maker. You're not talking to somebody who you really clearly understand could make use of your products or services. You're not chasing the right person when it comes to the value that you could add, so price could be off the table. So, Ian, when I'm not getting a response from customers, and I've got to decide who I'm going to follow up with and who I'm not going to follow up with, the first place I go back to is how well does this person fit my ideal profile?

01:46 Ian Altman

Well, I love that part of identifying fit because it really just comes down to, is this the type of organization we can help the most? Is this person rooting for me, or am I the fly in their ointment, if you will? And I think that oftentimes, and you touched on this, this notion that in salespeople are, I would almost call it, overly optimistic. And the bigger the deal, the more optimistic they get, because they think, well, it's a big deal, so it must be a good opportunity for us. I'm sure we're going to win this thing because, after all, it's a big deal. And one of the things that I often challenge people with is, I will ask them, what does the client need to see to be comfortable doing this business with you versus somebody else? And if you don't know, then the opportunity probably isn't well qualified. If you think yourself, oh, they'll definitely go with us, and you can't answer that question, you probably also don't know. And so, what we often have to ask ourselves is that notion of why would they pick us versus somebody else? And if we don't know, rest assured, they don't know, either. What do you see as big indicators that maybe you're wasting your time with the wrong opportunity?

03:03 Meridith Elliott Powell

With my clients, we use a grid. And the grid is that we lay out the top 10 qualifiers that we have to have to continue to chase a deal. And you have to at least meet six to seven of them for our salespeople to stay in the game. So often, what I look at is that maybe there's a couple of qualifiers there. Like you said, it's a good deal. It's a good size, business. Maybe you actually are talking to the decision-maker, but you've left something out, like their timeline. Maybe what you sell, they just upgraded this about a year ago, or they have just had a huge capital expenditure so, they've kind of had to put a hold on things. So, ignoring sense of urgency or some of the qualifiers that you add in there. Like I said, if you really sit down and understand why deals close, you'll see that there will be six or seven things that you really have to have with a client in order to make it worth your time. I think one thing that's really important for us to say is that nobody knows when a deal is going to close. You don't control when a customer is going to make a decision. So, one of the most important things that salespeople need to do is manage their time -- decide who am I going to follow up with and who am I going to let go? Because the moment that you decide you're going to follow up on a certain set or group of people, you're saying no to other people. So, you're, in essence, trying to make an educated guess. So, if you're not really being honest with yourself and looking at it from qualifiers, you're not making good guesses, and lack of good guesses is going to send you down the wrong rabbit hole.

04:51 Ian Altman

Yeah, and it really comes down to that notion of guessing. In fact, one of the things that I often comment on is people will say, oh, I had this amazing meeting with somebody. We were scheduled to meet for just 20 minutes, and the meeting instead lasted for an hour. And the two of us, man, we just click we connected right away. And the meeting went so well that we've agreed and already scheduled the time to meet again next week. And they come back and say, oh, this is a great opportunity. And it would be a great opportunity if it was set up on match.com, but it's not a great business opportunity. You know, the notion of we got along great, and we connected is great for chemistry, but not necessarily the business needs. And it gets back to what I teach in the Same Side quadrants, which is fundamentally, at those initial meetings, the prospect has to convince us that they have a problem that's worth solving, that we're good at solving. And if they can't, then we shouldn't spend time with it. And so, what happens is too often, people in sales want to talk about here are our amazing capabilities or our products, our services, and the reality is that if people don't have a need, they don't really care. So instead, we have to do is say, okay, what is it that piqued your interest to meet with me, to begin with? What happens if you don't solve that? Meaning the impact of not solving that problem. And then what does success look like going forward if we're to achieve the results you're looking for? And that delta between the two is what tells you the value of your solution and whether or not there's a real opportunity? And what I can tell you is that time and time again, I asked professionals, well think about a deal that happened faster than you thought it would, and where the client was less price-sensitive than your typical client, and by show of hands, how many of you can identify the impact in the client's words what happens if they don't solve it, and the results that they need to achieve? And almost everyone's hands go up. And you say, okay, now, I want you to think about a deal that had been hanging on for a year and answer the same question. No one's hands go up. Because if you don't know that information, neither does the client. And now, all of a sudden, you're pursuing an opportunity where you're more interested in the sale than the client is in solving the problem.

07:06 Meridith Elliott Powell

Yeah, I think something that really goes along really well with that is that you are chasing the wrong plan if you have no sense of the timeline and you have no sense of budget. I mean, if you haven't qualified those two pieces, that they're even thinking about pulling the trigger relatively soon. I mean, it doesn't mean that you don't follow-up with them, but maybe they go to an annual follow-up or twice a year follow-up -- people you just want to stay visible with. But some of the things that you need to find out early is, how hot an issue is this? Where does it fall on their priority list? Because that's going to give you every indication as to how much you need to stay in the game and how hard you need to be pursuing this. Now life would be easy if every time I called on a client that something I knew was urgent, they saw it as urgent. I have to sometimes move that up the urgency ladder for them. I have to help them understand it's a hot priority. But if I can't get them there, if they don't think that, it's never going to make it into the budget, and it's never going to be a qualifier. I just had one today I was talking with. We've got something we want to put on the calendar. We want to get going. She was very straight out with me. She said I can't get this through my member's budget until January. We need to set it to go as of January of 2022. That's great. Now I know what my follow-up cadence needs to be. She was honest with me; I can't push that. So now I know where I need to go. But get urgency and budget out there. Don't be afraid of it.

08:45 Ian Altman

Well, and I want to clarify a couple of points. Because one thing that you touched on that I want to make sure isn't lost on people is when you talked about the notion of urgency, you said you help the client move up the urgency. Meaning you help them become aware of why it's so urgent. People often ask me; how do I create urgency? And I said you can't. But you can ask the questions and have the conversations, so the client realizes that something is more urgent than maybe they thought it was before. So, for example, if someone says, oh, well, we've got this initiative for our salespeople, and you know, I think we're going to push this into 2022, because, you know, there's not much we can do with 2021. Then your question becomes, okay, so do you want to make it so that by 2022, they're already firing on all cylinders, or do you just want to start then? No, we want to make sure that they're already hitting their stride at that point. Okay. So how long do you think for your team, they need in terms of lead time? Well, probably at least 90 days. All of a sudden, guess what? It's, well, we have to start by October 1, or they're not going to be ready by then. So, if you ask the right questions, you can get there. The other side is I want to raise this notion where you talked about budget. I'm a big advocate that budget is often very misleading, in that if you ask somebody, what's your budget for this, they may have a totally unrealistic number. But, if you can have a discussion about what it cost them to not solve the problem, and what results look like, if you're successful, then that delta between those two becomes the value. And though they may not have it, "budgeted," as long as you're having a conversation with them, where they understand what it's costing them, and they understand what the outcome looks like, then you can have a rational discussion about the dollar. So, for example, if you find out that someone says, oh, yeah, because our team is discounting all the time, we're giving up $3 million a quarter in in revenue. You say, well, what percentage of that is profit? Well, all of it. Okay, so how much is that per year? So, it's $12 million. Okay. So, if to solve that it was going to cost $100,000 is that worth the discussion? Well, now they go, well, yeah, I mean, we weren't thinking we were going to spend $100,000. But, if it's going to help us solve the 12 million, yeah, we'll find the money. To me that's more meaningful than if they said, how do you fit into the 50,000? So, what's your thought on that?

11:11 Meridith Elliott Powell

What I love about that is it goes so well, to the point of follow-up. You better have a budget discussion. See, the moment that you open that door, and you're having that conversation, and you're making people think about budget, they're already starting to calculate it into that budget. They're already saying, well, if I brought Ian on, and we did this. They're starting to move the deal to close. But if you never had that conversation, they're thinking, well, I don't have that budgeted for this year. I'm not going to worry about it. Sounds like a great thing to do, but I'm not sure really sure we have the space. So basically, by having the discussion around budget, helping them find the money, you're moving the deal closer to a close, and making your follow up more relevant. You know, I know we're going to have an episode down the road where we talk about money, but it's something that salespeople tend to avoid that it is so advantageous for you. And if you're not talking about budget, I don't really know how you understand who to prioritize over anybody else, because budget helps me understand how close they are to actually closing the deal.

12:25 Ian Altman

Absolutely. Well, let me recap these key points. And as always, I'll give your opportunity for rebuttal to find the areas that I missed. So, when we're pursuing these opportunities that may or may not be worthwhile, one of the first things we have to look at is whether or not these people fit the type of profile of your ideal client. Are they a good fit for you? Then we have to look at asking ourselves the question, what do they need to see to be comfortable selecting us over other alternatives? And if we don't know the answer to that, they don't. And then the third key point, I would say, is this notion of making sure that they are convincing us. That we're asking the right questions so the client is convincing us of the issue they have and the impact of not solving it. That way we have the right people involved, and they've convinced us they have a problem worth solving. And that delta between the cost of not solving the problem and the outcome that we can deliver for them is the value that then we can say, is it worth spending X dollars to cover that gap? So, what did I leave out, Meridith?

13:26 Meridith Elliott Powell

I think you did a great job with it. The only thing I would say to kind of wrap it all together is that you control the follow-up process. And you need to really think about the fact that your time, you need to maximize it as a salesperson. Use what we talked about today to make the best educated guess that you can make. Sure, will you be wrong now and then? Absolutely. But for the most part, on average, you will make the right decision and the more you choose the right client to follow up on, the more successful you're going to be at sales.

13:57 Ian Altman

Excellent. Well, we will see you next time on the Same Side Selling Podcast. If you have questions or if there are topics you'd love for us to cover, just send a note to [email protected] you can send it to [email protected].

14:26 Ian Altman

Alright, be well and we'll see you next time. 

14:28 Meridith Elliott Powell

Thanks.

Welcome to the Same Side Selling Podcast. I'm your host, Ian Altman. One of the most common questions I get in our Same Side Selling Academy Coach's Corner sessions each month has to do with cold outreach. It usually comes in the form of what's the best way to have cold outreach to a client or prospect? 

Well, the best way is to not do cold outreach at all. Instead, have some sort of warm introduction. But what I want to focus on today is, what are some of the worst ways that you can start with cold outreach, and why are those ways so bad? So that hopefully, you can determine if, maybe you're doing some of those things, that those aren't a good idea. And then, I'll give you different ways that you can reach out to people instead.

So, the first way is, people reach out listing their services. I had an email just the other day, and for those people watching on video, you can see a screenshot of it that says, "Hi, I'm reaching out from such and such a company, and here are all the services that we offer: web design, HTML, Java. You name it. They listed like every type of electronic technology out there. Then they said, "So you won't even know that we're in another country," which was kind of odd that they would lead with that and then proceeded to talk about how maybe we should set up a time to talk. Well, the problem is, the easiest way to commoditize yourself is to just throw out there a bunch of services that are very generic in nature. Now, if all you do is say, here are the services I provide, then why would I hire you other than if you were the least expensive option? And the reality is, if I really needed those services, I want someone with deep expertise, not someone who can just list a bunch of bullets on an email. That's a horrible way to do it. So, the first one is listing yourself as a series of services which commoditize yourself. 

The second horrible thing is people who reach out based on price. So, they say, "Oh, we would love to talk to you because we're a cheaper alternative for doing x, y, and z." Now, if the first one is commoditizing yourself, the second one is just underselling or undervaluing what you do. In essence, what you're saying is we may not be good, but we're certainly cheap. And that's a terrible way to approach things because the message you are sending to potential clients right away is it's all about price. 

The third way that is a horrible way, as well, for reach out is dishonesty. Meaning, I've seen this recently peeking its ugly head on LinkedIn and in emails, where someone reaches out and says, "Oh, do you have capacity for additional clients?" And people say, "Well, yeah, how can I help you?" "Oh, well, we actually sell marketing services. So, if you have capacity for additional clients, then we don't really need your services, but maybe you could buy our services for marketing." So, it's kind of a bait and switch. Hey, I might be interested in your services. Oh really? Well, not really. Now, in my case, I pretty much operate at capacity, not really an issue, so I kind of play with these people and say, "Well, I'm kind of at capacity right now. What kind of help are you looking for?" And then, of course, they usually either don't respond. Or they'll respond and say, "Well, actually, I'm looking for people who might need our type of services to help them find clients," which is, once again, they start with something dishonest. 

And years ago, in my prior business, I would get cold calls all the time, people who snuck through the gauntlet of our administrative assistants, and oftentimes when people would say is, they would either lead with, "Oh, I'm a friend of his from school," which means that we get on the phone and find out they weren't. Or they would say, "I'm calling from his child's school." So now, of course, I would immediately pick up the phone. And then they'd say, "Well, actually, I'm calling from such and such a company. I want to schedule an appointment with you." To which I would say, if the way you first reached out to me was dishonest, what makes you think I would ever do business with you again? So, this notion of these types of outreaches, or the notion of "Hey, can I schedule a time with you on Tuesday at 10 am? On Thursday at 4 pm?" whatever it happens to be, these are desperation moves. It's all about "Hey, can I schedule time with you to pitch you on my company's products or services?"

So, what should you do instead? Well, what you want to do is you want to think about what types of problems or symptoms do you treat that these individuals might be facing? Do your research in advance. Look for, in essence, triggering events that might create a necessity for what it is that you do. And then, if you cannot get a warm connection from someone who knows them already on LinkedIn, then your cold outreach would be, we work with people just like you, in your industry. So, and I want you to be specific in that way -- not something generic like that. But we work specifically with chefs in multi-unit restaurants. We work specifically with IT directors in enterprise companies. We work specifically with lawyers who are running large legal practices, whatever it happens to be. They often come to us when they're facing one of these two or three challenges, boom, boom, boom. And though we've delivered great results for many of them, not everyone's the right fit for how we approach that. But if you know someone who might be facing one of those issues, I'm happy to schedule a few minutes to talk to you to see whether it might be worth a closer look. 

And so, the idea is we're disarming the notion that we're just there to sell something. We're acknowledging that other people come to us to help in those areas, but we may not be able to help that individual. It creates an authentic way of connecting to somebody because now you're saying here are the kinds of issues that we solve, but not everyone's a right fit. 

So once again, we want to make sure that when you're reaching out to people, that you're not falling into one of those first three traps. First, you want to make sure that you're not commoditizing yourself by just listing out your services. The second one is you want to make sure that you're not leading with price because then you're telling people, all it matters is price. And third, make sure that you're reaching out with integrity and honesty. So, don't use some deceptive practice, don't use these silly ideas like "Hey, can I get on your calendar at 10 am, tomorrow, or 3 pm on Tuesday?" Those are horrible approaches.

 Instead, reach out by describing the types of challenges that you solve. You can even share case studies of different companies. And what I would suggest is, come up with several different steps in a sequence. You see the first one. You send out this message. Then you send out a second one that says, you know, "You didn't respond to this other one. Here are a couple of the things we've been hearing lately. How common are these?" You're trying to start a dialogue. And as soon as someone picks back and gives you some level of interest, don't just jump into a pitch. Say, what was it that caught your attention? I want to make sure I fully understand what you're doing because I don't want to waste your time if we can't help. Because fundamentally, you want to focus your time on the people you can help the most and not waste your time or their time if it's someone you can't really help all that much. 

And these are the types of things that we see in the Same Side Selling Academy, every month, every week, these types of interactions, these types of ideas that people kick around to come up with different strategies that we share together. And if you feel like that might be a community that you would benefit from, feel free to reach out. We'd love to talk to you. For now, it's Ian Altman. I'll see you on the next episode of the Same Side Selling Podcast.

Welcome to the Same Side Selling podcast. I'm your host, Ian Altman. This week the topic is attention to detail. This is one of the things that often separates the top performers from the people who are just mediocre.

Now where did I come up with this topic? A friend of mine is interviewing for a position in his company. In the job posting, which is really clever and has a lot of little things that will entice quality applicants, he said in the posting, please include the word sensational in your cover letter. Now keep in mind, these are people applying for a job who obviously want the job or they wouldn't be applying for it. What percentage of the people do you think included the word sensational in their cover letter? The answer is less than 5%. In fact, some people tried to use the word and replaced it with a different word that’s similar, but not the same. Now, this is a position that requires attention to detail. 

So, you might think, well, I'm not applying for a clerical type position. Maybe attention to detail doesn't matter. And what I will tell you is certain things like typos aren't that critical. If you occasionally make a typo, it's not the end of the world. However, attention to detail is critical in the world of sales. Because oftentimes, what happens is, our clients or prospects share information with us, or there's information that's readily available that we either ignore, overlook, or get wrong. 

For example, I've seen people where the client will say, and we need this to support 40 to 50 of our individual employees. And three sentences later, the seller says, well, so how many people do you think, 20 people? And at that point, what's the client thinking? They're thinking, man, if you can't get the most basic information right, how are you possibly going to service my needs as a customer? 

So, attention to detail becomes absolutely critical. What it means is that we need to do research in advance about our clients, not so we can show up having all the answers, but so that when we hear something from them, it's not a surprise. We want to understand their language, their acronyms, the terms that they use, their lingo, if you will, to make sure that we understand all the nuances that might show up in their business, so that we seem totally credible and don't get things wrong. 

In my prior business, we did a lot of work in the pharmaceutical industry. In the pharmaceutical industry, they have clinical trials that they go through. And basically, trials go through phase one, phase two, and phase three. And phase three is it. That's the finish line. Once you go through phase three clinical trials, which is human, randomized, clinically controlled trials, that's when drugs then, if they pass through that process, they go to the FDA and other regulatory bodies for approval. 

And so, we had a member of our team, we said, look, you're new to this industry, we want you just sit back and listen, observe. And this person was just chomping at the bit, they wanted to contribute to the conversation. And so, the client said, well, right now at this stage, where we're at in our process, we've completed phase one, we're in phase two right now, where we're really going to need your help is when reach phase three clinical trials. And this individual chimed in and said, yeah, we can even help you in phase four. And all of us laughed, and the individual had no idea what was so funny, other than, they later realized, as we explained to them on the drive back there is no phase four. Phase Three, is it. You're over, you're done. 

So, we need to make sure that we understand the process, that we understand the language with our clients, because our clients can either see us as someone who's just a seller who's going to tell us anything we want to hear to get the sale, or they can see us as a subject matter expert. Someone who they can trust to deliver expertise to help them get the outcomes that they need. And what we know is that, if you want to sell hyper value, you have to be on that end of the spectrum. You have to be on the end of the spectrum that is a trusted subject matter expert. And as part of that you need to understand the industry, you need to understand your client, you need to pay careful attention. 

So, for example, oftentimes if I'm talking to a client, let's say they're inviting me to come speak at an event for them. Oftentimes what I'll do is as soon as I get that inquiry, I research everything I can about their company. That way when they throw out an acronym I already know what that means. And someone will say, well, do you know what that acronym means? I said, well, I think so. When using that context, do you mean this? They'll say, yeah, that's exactly what we mean. And it gives them a comfort level that you know their industry.

We also try to use examples that are relevant to them in their business. So, attention to detail is not just remembering to include a certain term, though, that's certainly valid. I've seen people respond to a request for proposal, and they omit key pieces of information that were fundamental requirements in the request for proposal. So, they could've delivered an amazing proposal but they left out critical information, that the client automatically says, you don't qualify, and they throw it in the trash. They may miss a deadline, once again, attention to detail. They may not include certain insurance information that was required as part of the proposal process. In the trash.

Each of these elements is something that is absolutely essential. And when professional sellers miss that information, they usually say, well, I only missed this one thing. But imagine if you're the customer, and you're thinking to yourself, when you're trying to sell to me, you're missing things that are essential to you making the sale. I can only imagine what you're going to miss once we become a customer. 

What that also means in attention to detail is follow through. It is making sure that when you say you're going to do something by a certain date and time that you actually deliver it. So that when you say to them, oh, I'll get back to you by Tuesday. Don't get back to them Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday. In fact, you should always pad it a little bit so if something comes up, you'll still be on time or early. The biggest mistakes that I found that I've made over the years are when I over-commit to something, and then I miss a deadline. And I don't know if the client cares so much. But for me, I feel so much shame, it's almost like I don't want to contact them anymore. So, attention to detail is a critical component to successful selling. 

It's the reason why in Same Side Selling, we emphasize this notion that the same side quadrants. Of taking notes in a specified format of the upper left quadrant, upper right, lower left, lower right of having issue in the upper left, impact/importance in the upper right, results in the lower left, and others' impact and lower right. And that way, we don't miss valuable information that we need and that our clients need as part of the process.

So next time, you're excited and you're reaching out to those clients and prospects, remember the attention to detail. Do your homework in advance. Make sure that you honor the commitments that you make to your clients. And you might just see your performance and results increase compared to the rest of the people on your team.

If you have additional questions, there are topics that you'd like me to cover on the next episode, drop me a note to [email protected]

Welcome to the Same Side Selling podcast. It's Ian Altman, and I'm joined by Meridith Elliott Powell. What we're talking about today is, we're recording this in mid-2021, and now people are coming out of the pandemic, things are opening up. Events are starting to happen in person, clients are actually having meetings in person. 

And, what I want to discuss today, and what Meridith and I are going to dive into is, what are the things and the traps that people are falling into today, that might be similar to traps they fell into as the pandemic was starting, and what can we learn going forward? 

So, Meridith, first, what are some of the traps, either back when the pandemic started, or now, that you're seeing people fall into that we can learn from? 

Meridith Elliott Powell  00:52

You know, it is kind of crazy. I mean, here we are light at the end of the tunnel, right? We're starting to come out of the pandemic. The world starting to open again. But as sales professionals, we're falling into some of the same traps. 

One of the biggest I think, and in all honesty, if you didn't take anything else from this podcast today, I think this would be incredibly valuable. It's the fact that the problem that you solved before COVID, the problem that you solved during COVID, and the problem that you sell and are solving, as we come out of COVID, they are all different. You have to understand that. 

I was talking to a client just the other day, and I said, “How are things going,” and she said, “Oh my God,” she said, “Coming out of COVID is so much harder than going into COVID.” They're in the restaurant industry and the problems and the regulations and just the emotions of customers. 

And, it really triggers the fact that, as a sales professional, what I'm solving, what I'm dealing with, and what I'm helping my customer with is different now. I may be selling the same products, but their problems have changed. And, I think as sales professionals getting into the trap that you're still solving the same thing is one of the biggest mistakes you can make. 

Ian Altman  02:01

Well, I think that what illustrates that is,  you think about it, if you're a restaurant group today, your biggest challenge is how do I hire people?

I was at a restaurant yesterday, and I was talking to one of the managers. It's a restaurant we've been going to for many years. And the manager said, “Right now, I have 15 total servers in my restaurant.” He said, “The reason why the restaurant isn't that full right now is not because we don't have demand, we do.” But, he said “We need to staff 40 people, and we can only handle 15.” 

So if you were someone who was pitching uniforms to a restaurant, the restaurant group is looking at you like, dude, uniforms? I need to find people, I don't need uniforms. Like I need people I can put uniforms on. And so I think that becomes a challenge. I think that going into the pandemic, the issue was that people were in sometimes in a crisis mode and sometimes in a thriving mode. So, I have clients who are selling to people in health care, and they were actually in some cases thriving, or, or it could have been somebody who is in a medical profession where they couldn't see patients, and now they were struggling.

But guess what, whatever you were saying to them before had changed, and now it's different. I think that, now as things are opening up, what I'm seeing in many areas is, how do we better engage our employees? How do we bring people back into the fold? And if you don't have a message that ties into that at all, then you might struggle a little bit earning attention.

So, I think the biggest thing that you're focused on, is having that awareness about what is different in your client's world that you can address uniquely, that maybe other people are overlooking. 

Meridith Elliott Powell  03:44

Yeah, I mean, Ian, in essence, what you're talking about is, the mistake we make as salespeople is not focusing on being relevant. And, we've really got to focus on being relevant and for our clients. Their world is changing. I'm going to tell you another big trap, I think, that we're falling into. And, that is the fact that when COVID hit, sales professionals thought, I don't want to bother my clients. I mean, they've got a lot on their plate, they're overwhelmed. The last thing they want to do is buy something right now. 

And, now that the world is opening back up, we're seeing the same thing. We're assuming that people are busy, we're assuming that, you know, they're still challenged by things that don't have anything to do with our line of business, and that our customers don't want to hear from us.

It was a mistake at the beginning of COVID. It's a mistake in the middle of COVID. And it sure as heck is a mistake that, when you know, when we're coming out of COVID. We are essential. And, I, you know, we really need to be more aggressive, I believe, than we've ever been. 

Ian Altman  04:42

And, I think part of that is helping your clients understand, here's how we're helping other organizations like yours. And, it's giving them a sense of, oh, I hadn't really thought about that. 

So, for example, I've been having conversations, as I'm sure you have with clients recently where I say, look, a lot of people right now saying, how do we reintroduce ourselves? How do we determine which meetings we should have in person and which ones are remote? How do we figure out what's most important to our clients?

So, I'll say to them, Look, these are some of the biggest challenges that people are addressing. What's your strategy for addressing those, and how might I be able to help? And oftentimes, when you present it that way, the first thing goes to their mind is, I haven't even thought about it. So, the way you can help is by helping me think about it. 

Is that a strategy that you'd recommend for people in general? 

Meridith Elliott Powell  05:29

I think that's so key and so important is, the fact that you know, as sales professionals, don't be put off by the fact that, maybe, people aren't returning an email or are returning a phone call. They have a whole lot on their plate. They're absolutely busy. But it doesn't mean they don't need you, and it doesn't mean that when the time is right, they're going to go to the person who's most visible, who's most out there. So, don't look at a lack of responsiveness as rejection. 

Everybody's busy, but, but, they need to hear from you. As they open up, they're going to need you to solve to, solve those problems. 

Ian Altman  06:08

Yep. And, I think that the underlying message that I want to make sure everyone gets is we're focused on what's important for our client. Not what were we selling last month? What do we want to sell? But instead, it's your point, it's that idea of relevancy. 

Are we talking to our clients about the things that, when they hear it, they say, “Oh, that's a topic I want to learn more about. That's a conversation I want to have.” As opposed to, very often we see people in sales, and I'm sure you're on the receiving end of these as, as much as I am, where someone says,” Hey, I'd love to set up 15 minutes to introduce myself and my company.” And I'm thinking, okay, that may be an interesting offer, but I'm not interested in it. And, maybe it’s interesting to someone else, but just not me, because I don't have a desire to carve out time in my day to hear somebody pitch their company.

But, if someone said, when I work with people like you, when I work with people who are financial services professionals when I work with technology executives when I work with, you know, you name it, when I, when I'm working with professional services companies, here are some of the three biggest challenges that I'm hearing, how common are those? Now, all of a sudden, what we're saying is, okay, I'm in touch with the types of things that are moving the needle in your industry.  Should we have a conversation about those?  That's where we can actually pique someone's interest. 

Meridith Elliott Powell  07:31

Yeah, which, you know, you really, it's a segue into another great challenge or, or mistake we as sales professionals are making. We made it when COVID started, and we're making it now is, is the fact that it's not about you. 

You know, it is not about you hitting your sales quota, it's not about you selling your product. You need to be 100% focused on the customer. If you do that, the rest is going to come. 

But you know, a lot of us are starting to feel pressure because the doors are opening is, as the, you know, industries are turning back on. We're like, yay, we can make our revenue from last year. I can get back on track. And, all of that is true. But it's still through the path of focusing 100% first on the customer and what they need. Just remember, this is not about you. You come second. 

Ian Altman  08:20

The funny part about this is that, when I talk to reps, what they'll say is “No, I get it, it's not about us, it's about the client.” And so what they'll do is, they'll say, “Well, so here are the three biggest challenges that people in your same position have been coming to us to address. Does one of those stand out for you?” 

And the client says, “Yeah, you know what that second one really stands out for me.  And, what the rep immediately says is, “Oh, let me tell you about what I sell that does that.” And it's like, no, no, no, you were so close. You're so close. 

Meridith Elliott Powell  08:51

You're almost there. 

Ian Altman  08:52

You're almost there. And, all you have to do is say, “Hmm, tell me a little bit more about that.” Or, “Tell me, why did you pick that one?”

And, now we're talking about what's important to them. There's plenty of time for you to talk about your stuff in terms of the solution to deliver the outcome that they need. But, the mistake that, unfortunately, too often gets made is, as soon as the client gives even the slightest inclination that says I might be interested in what you have, they go into pitch mode. And they're like, now let me that let me give you a demo. Let me show you this stuff. Let me give you all this extraneous information in PDF that you can read, instead of asking more about their situation, and what's piqued their interest.   

Because once we do that, that's when we can really have a conversation about the value that we're bringing, compared to what they're experiencing today. 

Meridith Elliott Powell  09:49

Completely. I mean, it's, you know, that whole idea of you have to build relationship and trust first to truly understand. 

You know, during COVID, after COVID, your customers can buy the product without you. There is very little we can't buy in this world while sitting at our computers and Googling. The value you bring is the relationship, the trust, and the resource, and information you can provide once you have built relationship and trust. 

So, never believe it is about you and your sales quota. All that's going to come, in fact, you'll blow by it if you start first by understanding that it's not about you. 

Ian Altman  10:27

And, Meridith, one of the things that I get is that sometimes reps will say, “Well, then they asked me.” They'll say, “Yeah, we have that second problem. How does your product solve that?” And, the rep says, “Well I had to tell them about it.”

No you don't. Because, if you ask me that question, I can say, “You know what, Meridith, before I get into the product, I want to make sure that I fully understand what it is you're facing, and whether or not it can even help. So, can I ask you a few more questions to make sure that I'm not giving you information about our product, if it won't help?” 

Who’s going to say no to that? Who's gonna say no to that. Who's gonna say, “No, no, I want a demo of a product that can’t help me.” No one's gonna say that! 

Meridith Elliott Powell  11:04

Because nobody really wants to sit through a demo anyhow. So, you're absolutely right. 

But, you know, what Ian, what you're saying is so key. And, it reminds me so much of us doing a keynote. I mean, the thing that you learn about doing a keynote, is you don't give the goods away at the beginning because nobody will stay to the end. 

It's the same thing in a sales conversation. You know, the moment, if you release your solution too fast, and you haven't really done your due diligence, you don't really intimately understand how it can specifically solve their problem, you've given them the opportunity to say no, to quit listening, before you ever really got into the conversation. 

So, hold that till the end. That's what's keeping them engaged. They want to know the solution. You give it away at the front, you've lost them. 

Ian Altman  11:54

And, the reality is this, is that, oftentimes, until you've asked the right questions until you've had enough discussions, you don't know what they ultimately need anyhow. 

So, your product that you're thinking of, so let's say it's a technology company. They might have a piece of software that's $50,000. The service engagements might range between 50,000 and a million dollars. And, the client says, “Well, will your product do this?” And, you don't yet have enough information. And, so, you go in and say, “Well, yeah, let me show you a demo of it.” 

And now the client is thinking, Okay, that's great. And then, through the course of your discussions going on, all of a sudden, you realize, well, the product is just like a rounding error, in comparison, what they really need. 
And, here's the other big trap that I find is that, as soon as you start talking about your product, any of your questions seem to have an ulterior motive around getting the client to buy your product. 

Instead of, if you continually push back and say, “I don't yet know that it can help you, I want to learn a few more things. Because there are three key elements we have to see to know that our products are the right fit, that we're the right fit between you and us. So, we want to figure that out before we just pitch stuff. Is that okay?” 

And it's refreshing for the client because they're thinking to themselves, wait, you mean, you don't want to just come in and give us a demo and have a meeting and all these cliche terms that we hear? You mean, you actually want to hear whether or not there's a fit first? Well, there's a novel concept. They may not even know what to do with that. 

Meridith Elliott Powell  13:26

That's right. There's a differentiator in the marketplace. Absolutely. 

Ian Altman  13:30

Yeah. And so, I think that's an element that really gets down to focusing on as we come out of this pandemic. Making sure that we're focusing on those pieces that are relevant to the client, and then remembering that it's all about the client and their needs, not about what it is that you're selling. 

Meridith Elliott Powell  13:47

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, we've got to focus our time and attention there. 

You know, it's interesting, our circumstances may change, the situations may change, there may be markets full of opportunity and those full of challenge. But, the basics of how to sell, the foundational piece, really, really remain, you know, remain the same. 

Ian Altman  14:06

Excellent. Well, let me try and do my best to give a quick 30-second recap of all the topics we talked about, and then I'll give you opportunity for rebuttal to tell me which things I missed. And we'll, we'll take it from there, so that way people have actionable steps they can take coming out of this, this episode. So first, we need to make sure that we remain relevant with our clients.

So, what we were selling six months ago, six years ago, or six days ago may not be what the client needs today. The second thing we need to focus on is that it's not about us. It's all about the client and their needs. And to that end, what we want to do is make sure that we're focusing on: here are the biggest issues that we're seeing today. Which one of those jumps out? When that client then says, “Oh, that one piqued my interest,” avoid the temptation to go into your pitch, because what we want to do is, we want to hold back that key information.

We want to hold back what the solution might be until, A: until we've learned enough about their situation to know what's the right fit, and B: because if we prematurely give that information, then any conversation, any questions we ask will seem to have an ulterior motive, and we won't get to the truth. So, what did I miss Meridith? 

Meridith Elliott Powell  15:18

I don't know. I think you did a great job. I think you really did a great job of summing it up. 

I guess the only thing that I would add is, what's interesting about everything that Ian and I have talked about today is, the longer that you talk to customers, the better questions you ask, the more you're going to learn. 
The more you learn, the more relevant you're going to be. The more relevant you are, the differentiator you're going to have in the marketplace, the better you're going to be able to provide a customized solution, and the more deals you are going to close. 

I think if you go into a sales call, the less you can speak, the better. The more questions you can ask, the more successful you're going to be. 

Ian Altman  15:55

Excellent. So, I encourage our audience to reach out to Meridith Elliott Powell or Ian Altman on LinkedIn. We're happy to connect with you there. In fact, if you just mention, “Hey, heard you on the podcast,” that pretty much locks you into us accepting your invitation and connecting with you. 

And of course, you can visit ValueSpeaker.com for Meridith and SameSideSelling.com for me, Ian Altman. 
We'll see you on the next episode of the Same Side Selling podcast 

Meridith Elliott Powell  16:22

See you next time!