Tamsen Webster Say What They Can't Unhear

Same Side Selling Academy > Captivate Podcasts > Tamsen Webster Say What They Can't Unhear

Ian Altman and Tamsen Webster discuss her new book, "Say What They Can't Unhear," which focuses on creating messages that stick and lead to sustained action. Tamsen emphasizes the importance of aligning sales messaging with existing client beliefs and leveraging their desire to be seen as smart, capable, and good. She introduces nine persuasion proverbs, such as "Change isn't just an action, it's a reaction" and "Identity is the greatest influencer," to help salespeople build long-term buy-in. They also discuss the pitfalls of challenging deeply held beliefs and the value of validating clients' initial choices to ensure lasting commitment.

Biggest Mistakes

  • Going straight to what we think will be remarkable or sticky without ensuring relevance.
  • Focusing on quick action rather than long-term, sustained changes in thinking or behavior.
  • Jumping to the solution without understanding why the problem is important to the client.
  • Trying to change deeply held beliefs instead of finding stronger, aligned beliefs.
  • Making clients feel bad about their past decisions or current vendors.

Best Practices

  • Use clients' existing beliefs in your favor rather than challenging them.
  • Focus on long-term, sustained changes in thinking or behavior rather than quick action.
  • Give clients all the pieces of the story they need to tell themselves why your solution makes sense.
  • Articulate your approach in a way that feels universally true to the client.
  • Leverage the client's experience and what they know to be true to explain why your product works.
Transcript
Ian Altman:

Ian, welcome to the same side selling podcast. I am

Ian Altman:

your host. Ian Altman, they say you always want to surround

Ian Altman:

yourself with people who are smarter than you, and today is

Ian Altman:

no exception. I'm joined by my good friend, Tamsen Webster and

Ian Altman:

tampson, for those of you who are long time listeners,

Ian Altman:

probably remember tam from her book, find your red thread and

Ian Altman:

tampson, I apologize if it was finding or fine, but I No, yeah,

Ian Altman:

exactly

Tamsen Webster:

right. You That was exactly the title of it. So

Ian Altman:

what are the odds? So I get it right. Go figure. Go

Ian Altman:

figure. And I love the notion of the latest book, which is

Ian Altman:

titled, say what they can't unhear. Because if you think

Ian Altman:

about it, those of us in sales are always trying to figure out,

Ian Altman:

what can I say that's going to stick with my client? What are

Ian Altman:

the messages that I'm going to convey that really stick and

Ian Altman:

make it so people remember them and they'll actually say it back

Ian Altman:

to us the way we said it, if not better. So with that, let me

Ian Altman:

welcome you aboard everybody. I want you to meet tam Webster.

Ian Altman:

Hey, Tamsen, hey, hey, good to see you. Thanks for joining. So

Ian Altman:

what was the what was the driving force behind this book?

Ian Altman:

I know that's a boring question, but, but I wanted to know

Ian Altman:

because I was like, Wow, I love the topic of this, but what was

Ian Altman:

it that made you say, Okay, here's, here's what's needed out

Ian Altman:

in the marketplace.

Tamsen Webster:

So really, the driving force behind this was my

Tamsen Webster:

watching our mutual friend Phil M Jones wrap yet another

Tamsen Webster:

audience around his British accented finger. And what I

Tamsen Webster:

realized, because I've seen Phil talk about sales and exactly

Tamsen Webster:

what to say and all of that, and I know he and you are aligned in

Tamsen Webster:

a lot of ways. I was watching him talk about his various

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pieces and philosophies, and I said, you know, so much of what

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he talks about and what you talk about is so good about in

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getting an immediate action, getting action and a yes right

Tamsen Webster:

away, and what I'm not hearing, at least in what he is saying,

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and as I was thinking about what else is in the marketplace, I

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don't see as much and hear as much about how to keep that yes

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as a yes. How do you keep someone how do you get a yes

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that doesn't back away and become part of buyer's remorse?

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How do you get a yes that doesn't turn into a ghost? How

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do you get a yes that doesn't turn into well, you know, the

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you know, procurement said no, right? So, how is it? What are

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those concepts, in a very similar way that Phil presents

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accessible, memorable, quick and to the point do I know from all

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the time that I've spent doing long term change might help

Tamsen Webster:

shift that? So it really was that moment. I'm like, huh, he's

Tamsen Webster:

got these concepts. I'm like, I do too. So I wrote them and

Tamsen Webster:

created nine persuasion Proverbs, as I like to call them

Tamsen Webster:

to really focus on not just action, but sustained action,

Tamsen Webster:

keeping the yes, a yes, yeah. I

Ian Altman:

mean, a lot of what I look at is, in many, in many

Ian Altman:

respects, you're often almost like the messaging whisperer,

Ian Altman:

like, Okay, what do we come up with that that someone hears and

Ian Altman:

they go, Oh, that's really good. That sticks. And I love that.

Ian Altman:

Everything you write about, everything you speak about,

Ian Altman:

there's always a structure behind it. So I'm not surprised

Ian Altman:

that there are nine proverbs that you share. So be before we

Ian Altman:

dive into those, sure, what are some of the mistakes that people

Ian Altman:

make when they're trying to accomplish this? So So

Ian Altman:

presumably, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but the goal

Ian Altman:

is, how do I how do I say stuff that's sticky that doesn't then

Ian Altman:

erode and get diluted over time, and people kind of forget and

Ian Altman:

don't care anymore?

Tamsen Webster:

Yes, yep. So I think one of the main big

Tamsen Webster:

mistakes is that we go straight to the what we think will be

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remarkable or sticky or different, without making sure

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that those words that are wrapped around that idea, that

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the idea underneath it is something that people would also

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say yes to. So one of the things I often say to my clients is

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that remarkable may get attention, but relevance keeps

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it and there's a lot of things that we do sometimes to get

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attention to be different, to be a challenger, to be

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controversial with somebody, particularly that we're meeting

Tamsen Webster:

with, perhaps for the first time, so that we can stand out.

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That while they may get that attention to start with, in many

Tamsen Webster:

ways, it works against long term change to begin with. So I would

Tamsen Webster:

say that in addition to focusing on, how do we be different, how

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do we stand out? The other big mistake is focusing on quick

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action rather than long term, sustained changes in thinking or

Tamsen Webster:

behavior, and that oftentimes is a different set of principles.

Ian Altman:

Yeah, and it's interesting, because I think

Ian Altman:

it's one of the things that I. I say, I talk about a lot also,

Ian Altman:

which is very often somebody will say, Oh, here's this thing

Ian Altman:

we want to solve. And old school sales would jump into the

Ian Altman:

solution right away, instead of, well, help me understand why

Ian Altman:

that's important, and what is it you're really trying to solve,

Ian Altman:

and what have you done to try and solve this? And who else is

Ian Altman:

most directly impacted? We unpack all this other stuff that

Ian Altman:

now makes it so that we can come back to them and say, okay, in

Ian Altman:

order to solve that underlying issue and get this outcome, this

Ian Altman:

is what would suggest. But if we didn't do that, if we just jump

Ian Altman:

to the solution, we kind of get this watered down problem that

Ian Altman:

they have that doesn't have a lot of relevance,

Tamsen Webster:

absolutely and and we're also not giving them

Tamsen Webster:

all the pieces of the story that's going to happen in their

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heads, or that actually has to happen in their heads in order

Tamsen Webster:

for it to make sense. I'm sure we talked about this a little

Tamsen Webster:

bit the last time, and it's the second proverb in the book. But

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every decision has a story behind it, right? A story that

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somebody tells themselves. And one of the ways that I talk

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about it in this new book is that every action somebody takes

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ends an internal argument in their heads about why that

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action does or doesn't. Make sense, right? And so if somebody

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chooses you or doesn't choose you, it's because they are

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telling themselves a story about why they should or shouldn't.

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And so the whole idea is, if we only give people the problem and

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the solution, which is just the beginning and the end of the

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story, like that would be a very unsatisfying story. You know, if

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it were a once upon a time story, I often use the Star Wars

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example of like, well, once upon a time, there's a Brady kid

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named Luke, and he saved the galaxy. And you're like, Okay,

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fine, there's no conflict. There's no why would I listen?

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You know? And, and the equivalent is basically saying,

Tamsen Webster:

oh, that's your problem. Here's our solution. And then when we

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when people really want that deeper connection, and the

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connection in between is, why is that the solution? Then,

Tamsen Webster:

oftentimes what we end up doing then is like, benefit bombing

Tamsen Webster:

them and say, well, you're going to get this and you're going to

Tamsen Webster:

get this and you're going to get this and you're going to get

Tamsen Webster:

this, and that you still haven't actually explained why your

Tamsen Webster:

solution would legitimately solve their problem. So they

Tamsen Webster:

you're not giving them all the pieces they need to tell that

Tamsen Webster:

story to themselves, which is absolutely why they can't tell

Tamsen Webster:

it to somebody else either.

Ian Altman:

Yeah, and it's interesting, because I think in

Ian Altman:

my research, a lot of what we find is that it's not that the

Ian Altman:

person hasn't tapped into at some level the problem. Oh,

Ian Altman:

absolutely right. They don't yet believe that it's a really

Ian Altman:

serious problem. So like, wow, this thing kind of happened, and

Ian Altman:

why? You know, we should probably fix that so, so let's

Ian Altman:

go, let's go search for a solution. But it's when the

Ian Altman:

person communicating with them asked the question about, so how

Ian Altman:

long has it been going on? What happens if you can't solve this?

Ian Altman:

What have you tried so far? And what I tell my clients is, look,

Ian Altman:

if they say, Well, I haven't really tried anything else, it's

Ian Altman:

probably not that important to solve, because they haven't

Ian Altman:

tried anything. If it's something important, they say,

Ian Altman:

Well, we tried this, we tried this, this didn't work, that

Ian Altman:

didn't work. And there's research that says the greatest

Ian Altman:

reason why people pick one services vendor over another is

Ian Altman:

how well they feel you understand their situation. So

Ian Altman:

as soon as you jump to the solution, you're talking about

Ian Altman:

yourself, not them, and their favorite topic is them. And if

Ian Altman:

you can convey that you understand and help them

Ian Altman:

understand their predicament, then they're more likely to be

Ian Altman:

open to the solution. So where do these proverbs tie into that

Ian Altman:

kind of stuff? Because I'm sure they do. Yeah. I

Tamsen Webster:

mean, I think what, what it reminds me of is

Tamsen Webster:

the first proverb there, which is that change isn't just an

Tamsen Webster:

action, it's a reaction. Meaning, if we're trying to get

Tamsen Webster:

well, first and foremost, that reaction, that's where you think

Tamsen Webster:

about re, hyphen, action, a true change in thinking or behavior,

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is a repeated action and and one that is internally motivated,

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which is why it has to come in from their side of it has to be

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they. It has to make sense to them based on what they already

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want, what they already know, what they already care about. So

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if we are not focused on that piece and we're just trying to

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get that quick action, then again, we may not get that long

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term. Yes, we may get somebody asked because yes, you've raised

Tamsen Webster:

the stakes, or you've made the pain of the status quo exceed

Tamsen Webster:

the pain of change, or whatever it might be. But also, just to

Tamsen Webster:

your point, it's also reaction to you. Because if you're trying

Tamsen Webster:

to introduce a new perspective on this problem, if you're

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trying to get them to see consequences that they're not

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seeing, if you're trying to reveal to them that there is a

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deeper problem underneath the one that they know about, then

Tamsen Webster:

the biggest source of new information is you, and so much

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of how you approach that change whether or not you make them

Tamsen Webster:

feel worse as a result of what they've done, if you make them

Tamsen Webster:

feel bad about what they've. Doing if you make them, if you

Tamsen Webster:

insult their current vendor, right? By insulting their

Tamsen Webster:

current vendor, your consult, you're insulting them in many

Tamsen Webster:

ways that that can absolutely set you up for failure at the

Tamsen Webster:

beginning. So that's why I made that the first proverb, because

Tamsen Webster:

I think a lot of times we just think that the information is

Tamsen Webster:

enough to make the case on our own, but the approach that we

Tamsen Webster:

take is just as important, because so much of what people

Tamsen Webster:

are reacting to is you,

Ian Altman:

yeah, you know what? I love some of these points,

Ian Altman:

there are a few things that kind of stick out to me. One is this

Ian Altman:

notion of you can never say something negative about the

Ian Altman:

competition or about their current vendor, because if

Ian Altman:

you've done the right job, if you're talking to the right

Ian Altman:

person, they likely made the decision to hire the existing

Ian Altman:

vendor. Say, Well, Who's the idiot who hired these people?

Ian Altman:

And they're like, Well, that would be me. Okay, I'll let

Ian Altman:

myself out. Yeah, exactly. I'll just leave because it's not

Ian Altman:

gonna work. And Deborah and I have adult children, so 25 and

Ian Altman:

23 we didn't fire their pediatrician. It's just our

Ian Altman:

needs changed. We no longer had we no longer had children. We

Ian Altman:

had adults. Yeah, and the pediatrician basically said to

Ian Altman:

our son, look, when you have to shave before coming to the

Ian Altman:

doctor, it's time to you know, skip the pediatrician. You know,

Ian Altman:

who are coming here. It's like, Okay, fair enough, right? So

Ian Altman:

that kind of, that kind of helps to illustrate this notion of, we

Ian Altman:

got to get to that type of issue. We got to get beyond just

Ian Altman:

this notion of, you know, us against them. It's more, how do

Ian Altman:

we get on the same side? How are we trying to solve this puzzle?

Ian Altman:

It's okay, like, the that vendor you chose was probably the best

Ian Altman:

vendor on the planet at that time in your in your situation,

Ian Altman:

that was awesome. And now that your needs have changed, we can

Ian Altman:

expand this to new stuff that you hadn't thought about. And I

Ian Altman:

go, well, that's kind of cool. Okay, exactly. Yeah, we can do

Ian Altman:

something different, and we can get more going on with that.

Ian Altman:

Wow, this is cool. Okay, there's something else to talk about. So

Ian Altman:

the first proverb is this idea of every action is a reaction.

Ian Altman:

Is that? Right?

Tamsen Webster:

Yeah, change isn't just an action, it's a

Tamsen Webster:

reaction.

Ian Altman:

It's a change is just an action, it's a reaction.

Ian Altman:

Which I love, because I often tell people it's like, you can

Ian Altman:

come in and think of the greatest thing, but it's like,

Ian Altman:

it would be analogous to if you were a, if you were someone who

Ian Altman:

did tennis elbow surgery. Yeah, you can't walk in and go, I'm

Ian Altman:

the best at tennis elbow surgery. So why don't we get

Ian Altman:

together and, and let's, let's go through this and, and I've

Ian Altman:

got you scheduled for 10am on Tuesday. Here's some references,

Ian Altman:

because if the person doesn't believe they have tennis elbow.

Ian Altman:

It really doesn't matter. And if the tennis elbow isn't affecting

Ian Altman:

their life, they're not going to subject themselves to surgery.

Ian Altman:

And it's the same thing in this business world, where we're

Ian Altman:

trying to make it so that people understand that exactly. Walk me

Ian Altman:

through the Proverbs that and kind of how this is different

Ian Altman:

thinking for people, because I know that it is because I know

Ian Altman:

the way your brain works, and you're always thinking of stuff

Ian Altman:

that most of us wouldn't think of. Yeah, and, and, and, I don't

Ian Altman:

want you to give away everything in the book, because people

Ian Altman:

should get

Tamsen Webster:

that. They should Well, I'm just giving

Tamsen Webster:

people a little taste here. So the first three Proverbs, we've

Tamsen Webster:

actually talked about two of the three. And so that first one is

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change isn't just an action. It's a reaction, meaning really

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be You control a huge amount about whether or not this is

Tamsen Webster:

going to be a yes or not. So yep, don't you know, take that

Tamsen Webster:

with the responsibility that is, yeah. As I say, your approach

Tamsen Webster:

can just as easily implode a change as inspire one second

Tamsen Webster:

one. Every decision has a story. So what I'm talking about there

Tamsen Webster:

is it's not just an explanation that we're giving people. We

Tamsen Webster:

have to give them an actual case, and I mean that quite

Tamsen Webster:

literally, that they can make to themselves and to other people

Tamsen Webster:

about why that particular action makes sense. Then it's like,

Tamsen Webster:

okay, well, if it's an argument, what is it based on? And that's

Tamsen Webster:

where the third principle comes into play, and that is that the

Tamsen Webster:

principles set patterns. And this is one of the, you know,

Tamsen Webster:

what I'm getting at at this one is that, you know, when we're

Tamsen Webster:

thinking about what we say yes to, and this is, I think, one of

Tamsen Webster:

the places where it's the book really starts to diverge from

Tamsen Webster:

other people's thinking is that these actions, these arguments

Tamsen Webster:

that we agree with, are based on beliefs that we already have.

Tamsen Webster:

And so if we're trying to understand why someone's doing

Tamsen Webster:

whatever they're doing right now, we have to stop and think

Tamsen Webster:

about, well, why would it have made sense to them in the first

Tamsen Webster:

place, and then from there, we can have a much better

Tamsen Webster:

understanding about why something different would so

Tamsen Webster:

those first three are kind of setting the stage for

Tamsen Webster:

understanding how change happens, but it's the next three

Tamsen Webster:

that I think are the most countercultural when it comes to

Tamsen Webster:

sales messaging. Particular

Ian Altman:

so talking before we dive into these next three what

Ian Altman:

I want to know is, so what a I love, how I love how the dogs

Ian Altman:

have figured out how to how to create a reaction.

Tamsen Webster:

Yes, you've Yes, thank you for being patient.

Tamsen Webster:

Yes, this is one of those times where at this point of the day,

Tamsen Webster:

I have to be very careful. We have to be very careful about

Tamsen Webster:

both Tom, my husband and I being on the call at the same time,

Tamsen Webster:

which we are, which means that, no, he can't save me right now

Tamsen Webster:

from this dog that is like now, just getting a constant stream

Tamsen Webster:

of treats so that she doesn't fully interrupt,

Ian Altman:

of course, but, but she's, she's figured out. She's

Ian Altman:

She's clearly read the book. She's

Tamsen Webster:

clearly read the book. This is a very smart, this

Tamsen Webster:

is a very smart dog. This one, well, these breakdowns, is what

Tamsen Webster:

they do. They That's right, yes, she's, yeah, the only thing that

Tamsen Webster:

would make it better is if I were a rabbit, but exactly

Ian Altman:

so. So what? So in these next three, yes, what I'd

Ian Altman:

love for you to kind of lay out is, what is it that people are

Ian Altman:

what is it that people are trying to accomplish? And what

Ian Altman:

do they do typically, versus what are you suggesting? Because

Ian Altman:

what I'm trying to help people with is okay, so if you're

Ian Altman:

trying to accomplish this, and you may typically do this,

Ian Altman:

here's a counterintuitive way to look at it. Yep, you can unpack

Ian Altman:

it however works for you. But that's true. That's what I'd

Ian Altman:

like our listeners to understand

Tamsen Webster:

absolutely well, almost always, if you're coming

Tamsen Webster:

in and you are trying to get a change, if you're trying to get

Tamsen Webster:

the person to change partners, change vendors, to you, you're

Tamsen Webster:

trying to get them to adopt or expand. Let's say, if you're

Tamsen Webster:

trying to do an inside sale and try to get them to expand what

Tamsen Webster:

they're doing, right? There is something that in their mind, in

Tamsen Webster:

your mind, needs to change and and usually the way we think

Tamsen Webster:

about that is, well, then I need to change what they think. I

Tamsen Webster:

need to change what they believe. This is where it goes

Tamsen Webster:

wrong, because, as I say in the fifth proverb, that the deepest

Tamsen Webster:

beliefs are the hardest to shift. We know this intuitively,

Tamsen Webster:

right? The longer somebody believes something, the stronger

Tamsen Webster:

they believe it. But what that means is, is that when you try

Tamsen Webster:

to bring in a new belief, saying, well, that's not your

Tamsen Webster:

problem. This is or you don't want that. You want this or this

Tamsen Webster:

is the real reason this is happening, even if they say yes,

Tamsen Webster:

which is unlikely, because, remember, they're going to say

Tamsen Webster:

yes to things that agree with what they already have agreed

Tamsen Webster:

with. Then even if they do say yes, then you've got this

Tamsen Webster:

little, tiny, weak baby new belief, like the first time it

Tamsen Webster:

gets tested, running up against this 800 pound gorilla of the

Tamsen Webster:

way they have done things to date. So what I have seen now

Tamsen Webster:

work over and over again in sales, messaging, all sorts of

Tamsen Webster:

other messaging, is, instead of trying to challenge their those

Tamsen Webster:

beliefs that are getting in the way, search for another one that

Tamsen Webster:

is stronger that they already have. So what that means

Tamsen Webster:

sometimes is saying, All right, so you don't think you know, if

Tamsen Webster:

I try to actually say, Stop doing this. Do this. Instead,

Tamsen Webster:

unlikely that someone's going to do that. But generally, there is

Tamsen Webster:

something else that they agree as far as how sales work, how

Tamsen Webster:

people work, how maths work, how the world works, that actually

Tamsen Webster:

is much more reliable and supports the changes you're

Tamsen Webster:

trying to make that then when you put those two things in a

Tamsen Webster:

fight, it's much more likely to win.

Ian Altman:

Yeah, and it's, it's one of these things where I

Ian Altman:

often say that our clients will believe 127% of what we say,

Ian Altman:

and, you know, and something less than 50% of what we say. So

Ian Altman:

they're always going to believe more of what, more of what they

Ian Altman:

say than what we say. And so oftentimes we take this approach

Ian Altman:

of, you know, it's, it's not challenging what their beliefs

Ian Altman:

are. It's just more so on a scale of one to 10, how well is

Ian Altman:

that working for you? Yes. And if they go, I don't know, it's

Ian Altman:

probably like a six, really. Why six? Well, because this working,

Ian Altman:

but that isn't okay. So and then using a line from Phil Jones

Ian Altman:

would be well, so how open would you be to considering something

Ian Altman:

different? And now it's like it was their idea to do something

Ian Altman:

different, so it's okay. But if you come in and say, well, doing

Ian Altman:

it that way is going to be awful, they usually are going to

Ian Altman:

be resistant if you say to them. So other clients of ours, when

Ian Altman:

they've done it this way in the past, didn't even realize this

Ian Altman:

was what was happening. And when they've moved this other system,

Ian Altman:

these other great things happen. How possible you think that is

Ian Altman:

in your situation? Then they go, Hey, I got this idea that maybe

Ian Altman:

this would happen. And you're like, oh, it's brilliant that

Ian Altman:

you have that idea. But it's more just about sharing, like,

Ian Altman:

if we share a third party story, someone goes, Oh, yeah, I'm

Ian Altman:

probably a lot like them. If I say to you, you should do it

Ian Altman:

this way, I'm probably going to get resistance if I say other

Ian Altman:

people had this, but that probably doesn't apply to you,

Ian Altman:

right? They're like, well, it totally applies to me. It's the

Ian Altman:

same thing, but it now became their idea. So, you know, this,

Ian Altman:

this notion. Of those deepest beliefs being the hardest ones

Ian Altman:

to change. Totally get that and and too often I see people make

Ian Altman:

a mistake of trying to fight that, and it's a losing battle.

Ian Altman:

If you want to get top results for your team, take a look at

Ian Altman:

these same side, selling Academy. Just visit same side

Ian Altman:

selling.com to learn more. That's

Tamsen Webster:

right. So I say use, use their beliefs in your

Tamsen Webster:

favor. So it's the whole full lot, you know, the whole

Tamsen Webster:

phenomenon is something that's known as cognitive inertia. It's

Tamsen Webster:

like regular inertia. That is like something that, you know,

Tamsen Webster:

body at rest, stays at rest. The thing is, with cognitive

Tamsen Webster:

inertia, it's our beliefs that don't move right? It's that we,

Tamsen Webster:

you know, we stick with the beliefs that we already have and

Tamsen Webster:

the stories that we already tell ourselves. So the thing is,

Tamsen Webster:

like, when you work, and as I say, to be don't challenge

Tamsen Webster:

people's beliefs. Exchange them, exchange them for something that

Tamsen Webster:

they know or that makes more intuitive sense than what

Tamsen Webster:

they're doing now, or functionally, when they put it

Tamsen Webster:

together, like, ah, yeah, based on what I know to be true, based

Tamsen Webster:

on my own experience, your prospect can say, yeah, that

Tamsen Webster:

actually does make more sense. Like I was talking with someone

Tamsen Webster:

who works at a social media management company, and, you

Tamsen Webster:

know, and again, there's lots of options for that, lots of

Tamsen Webster:

different things, so it's hard to stand out in that

Tamsen Webster:

marketplace. So it was funny, because we were on, I was on a

Tamsen Webster:

podcast, and he paused, and he just, he showed a he showed an

Tamsen Webster:

ad for them, and I said, you know, what's so interesting is

Tamsen Webster:

that the case, you know, all these testimonials that you

Tamsen Webster:

picked, all of them talk about kind of the reporting and all of

Tamsen Webster:

that. And I'm sure it's very tempting to say, or our

Tamsen Webster:

reporting is so much better, but this is one of those places

Tamsen Webster:

where they can stand out. Because clearly what's important

Tamsen Webster:

to the folks that they're talking to is visibility, right?

Tamsen Webster:

And the more that you can say like, the greater visibility you

Tamsen Webster:

have into what's working and what's not, the better you can

Tamsen Webster:

manage your social media platforms saying something like

Tamsen Webster:

that, where someone's like, Well, that's true if, yeah, the

Tamsen Webster:

better I can see things, the better decisions I can make.

Tamsen Webster:

Then all of a sudden you've supplanted anything else that

Tamsen Webster:

says what you know. Instead of making it about this program

Tamsen Webster:

versus that program, you're like, Well, now you've made it

Tamsen Webster:

so that visibility means everything for my

Ian Altman:

clients with often find is okay. So if I said to

Ian Altman:

you, oh, here's a better way to do it, the client's gonna say,

Ian Altman:

now we wouldn't want to do that. If you say, Well, it's

Ian Altman:

interesting, because people used to do this now find that this is

Ian Altman:

working better. So how do you think that would be different

Ian Altman:

for you guys? It'd probably be the same for us. Okay? And now

Ian Altman:

it became their idea, the people you're talking about in the

Ian Altman:

social media marketing company, yeah, I think the notion for

Ian Altman:

them of being able to say, for example, so that visibility is

Ian Altman:

important, but if they if their messaging was almost talking

Ian Altman:

more to the problems of other people, and say, you know, a lot

Ian Altman:

of times we had clients who said, in the past, the people

Ian Altman:

they worked with, they didn't have visibility into what was

Ian Altman:

going on, And without that visibility, by the time they

Ian Altman:

realized something was or wasn't working, they had wasted a lot

Ian Altman:

of money on it. So we've changed that to give instant visibility

Ian Altman:

so they can pivot as soon as they start seeing results. How

Ian Altman:

would you guys use that? Now the client goes, Oh, if I had that,

Ian Altman:

I would do X, Y and Z. And now it's like, well, forget about

Ian Altman:

the company I was working with because I had that same problem.

Ian Altman:

You know, we often say that people are highly attuned to the

Ian Altman:

symptoms they're experiencing. They just don't know what the

Ian Altman:

what the condition is that's causing it, or how to treat it,

Ian Altman:

but they know what the superficial symptoms are, and if

Ian Altman:

we can tap into that, then we get their attention. That's

Tamsen Webster:

exactly right. And and by by what I have seen

Tamsen Webster:

is that by articulating that in a way that, again, feels

Tamsen Webster:

universally true, right, like the better visibility that you

Tamsen Webster:

have, the better decisions you can make, right? Like, that's

Tamsen Webster:

what we believe at this company, and so that's why we approach it

Tamsen Webster:

this way. And that's what we've seen with our clients, is that

Tamsen Webster:

when they do X and Y, they see, and that has been just for me in

Tamsen Webster:

my work, as I've been working with folks, you know, with this,

Tamsen Webster:

with particularly with these Proverbs, but in this approach

Tamsen Webster:

of really finding that, you know, I call it a core case like

Tamsen Webster:

this, this, what is the underlying argument for what you

Tamsen Webster:

are, what you're putting out there, like, Why? Why is it that

Tamsen Webster:

you believe this is right, without resorting to features,

Tamsen Webster:

you know, flooding them with features, or, like, benefit

Tamsen Webster:

bombing or anything like that, like, like, really, like, in a

Tamsen Webster:

way that makes intuitive sense to them, what ends up happening

Tamsen Webster:

is that your clients end up saying, Ah, yeah, I agree in

Tamsen Webster:

principle that why this would work, and with that kind of that

Tamsen Webster:

early and really critical, yes, secured, then you can start to

Tamsen Webster:

dive into the details of what it looks like in practice, either

Tamsen Webster:

for other clients or potentially for them, so that you can start

Tamsen Webster:

to go into needs discovery and all of. Yeah,

Ian Altman:

yeah. What I love is that you're, you're giving

Ian Altman:

people insight into how our customers make decisions, yes,

Ian Altman:

and what they need to believe in order to get behind a decision

Ian Altman:

so they can own it. And I think that's what, that's what,

Ian Altman:

obviously, I spend a lot of time with people on which is, look,

Ian Altman:

if you can find someone who says, Yeah, I have this problem,

Ian Altman:

and that problem is costing me a lot, and it's really important

Ian Altman:

for me to solve. Now you have their attention. If someone

Ian Altman:

says, Well, here's this thing I'd like to do, and you start

Ian Altman:

talking about your solution, what you fail to recognize is

Ian Altman:

that they may not really be bought into how big of a deal

Ian Altman:

this is yet. And so your solution, they're like, well,

Ian Altman:

that's kind of cool if, if it was a big problem. Now, the

Ian Altman:

salesperson says, well, but you called me, it must be a big

Ian Altman:

deal. No, they're just like, huh, I got this issue. These

Ian Altman:

guys claim to solve it. Let's see what they got and but

Ian Altman:

they're not bought into it yet. And I think that if we do this

Ian Altman:

right, we're providing our clients with information. So in

Ian Altman:

essence, if we ask the right questions, they'll convince us

Ian Altman:

that things are worth solving. And if we can convince if we can

Ian Altman:

get them to convince us that it's worth solving, they're also

Ian Altman:

convincing themselves. And then all of a sudden, now it's like,

Ian Altman:

Okay, now, now we're on to something where, okay, now we

Ian Altman:

can say something that they can't unhear. Because mostly

Ian Altman:

what we're saying is their ideas. We're just kind of

Ian Altman:

spitting them back to

Tamsen Webster:

them, that's right. And I think where it

Tamsen Webster:

comes and creates this magic, kind of magic elixir between

Tamsen Webster:

them now saying, oh my gosh, I actually have to solve this. And

Tamsen Webster:

you saying, and yes, we've got a way to solve it is by finding

Tamsen Webster:

that way to again, using something that they already know

Tamsen Webster:

to be true to say, All right, so you know, you've got this issue

Tamsen Webster:

that you called with right the way we see it is that in order

Tamsen Webster:

to solve that, we have to solve this thing first. Because let's

Tamsen Webster:

go back to the social media thing, because if you can't

Tamsen Webster:

actually see the results of what you're talking about, you can't

Tamsen Webster:

solve it. So that's why it's been so important for us to make

Tamsen Webster:

sure that when we're working with clients, we're actually

Tamsen Webster:

really focused on visibility. This gets really powerful when

Tamsen Webster:

you can say, but that's not all right when you can actually add

Tamsen Webster:

this other thing that says, because you know, you can have a

Tamsen Webster:

whole bunch of visibility. But if, if, if one thing is showing

Tamsen Webster:

you things in black and white and the other thing is showing

Tamsen Webster:

you in color, then you may not actually be able to match

Tamsen Webster:

anything up. That's why, right? We want to make sure that if

Tamsen Webster:

we're if we are getting visibility, that we have a clear

Tamsen Webster:

view and we're using the same lens on everything that we're

Tamsen Webster:

looking at. So that's why, in our comprehensive system, right,

Tamsen Webster:

x, y and z. So, and then you can again relate that back to the

Tamsen Webster:

client. So it really is this, this piece about, like, going

Tamsen Webster:

back into those, into those beliefs, about using the beliefs

Tamsen Webster:

as the core data that's supporting your case for why you

Tamsen Webster:

and that, I think, is really where this, this approach, goes.

Tamsen Webster:

You know, I think speaking about where we end up going wrong

Tamsen Webster:

sometimes, is we, we? We want to flood them with all the data and

Tamsen Webster:

all the information, all the facts and the figures, but you

Tamsen Webster:

know very much along the lines of what you said, they're going

Tamsen Webster:

to believe their own experience most. So leverage their

Tamsen Webster:

experience, leverage what they know to be true, and explain why

Tamsen Webster:

your product works based on their experience. And then

Tamsen Webster:

you've got to really that's what becomes very difficult for them

Tamsen Webster:

to unhear. When they're like, oh, this solves a problem that I

Tamsen Webster:

know I want solves, and the way that it works is based on

Tamsen Webster:

principles that make sense to me, that I believe are true. And

Tamsen Webster:

from there, it becomes a lot easier for you to start

Tamsen Webster:

anchoring the more more practical and tactical pieces of

Tamsen Webster:

what you've already presented.

Ian Altman:

Yeah, it's a whole notion of, if we ask the right

Ian Altman:

questions, and we give the client the free will, and the

Ian Altman:

client makes a decision to do something that makes sense to

Ian Altman:

them, then it wasn't like we talked them into something that

Ian Altman:

they're gonna talk themselves out of, right? They talk

Ian Altman:

themselves into it. And the best way to do that is by us being

Ian Altman:

slightly skeptical. That says, Are you sure this is worth

Ian Altman:

solving? Like, is this am I missing something? And then they

Ian Altman:

either say, no, no, it is. You don't understand. But if we say,

Ian Altman:

Wow, that's probably a really big deal, usually the client

Ian Altman:

goes, yeah, it's not such a big deal, even if it is because they

Ian Altman:

feel pressure from someone else. I used to do this exercise with

Ian Altman:

people pre covid That now is less popular to do, which is I

Ian Altman:

would have people put their hands palm to palm against

Ian Altman:

someone else. And I gave instruction cards, and half of

Ian Altman:

them said to gently push against the other person. And half them

Ian Altman:

said, push slightly, and then slowly, draw your hands away

Ian Altman:

from the other people. Yeah. And if you looked in the room, you

Ian Altman:

could not tell the difference of who had which card, because the

Ian Altman:

people who pushed got resistance, and the people

Ian Altman:

pulled their hands away, the clients tended to follow. And it

Ian Altman:

basically came down to it. If you create something of interest

Ian Altman:

and slowly pull it away, people will want to follow it. If you

Ian Altman:

have something of interest, but you push, you tend to get

Ian Altman:

resistance. And this whole idea of being able to say what they

Ian Altman:

can't unhear as I hear it, is this notion of if we tap into

Ian Altman:

their own beliefs, if we tap into the stories that they can

Ian Altman:

that they can believe, if we give them this idea of these

Ian Altman:

principles that form patterns, all of a sudden, now we've got a

Ian Altman:

framework that says, Okay, I believe this. This is something

Ian Altman:

that isn't foreign to me. I can buy into this concept. Am I? Oh,

Ian Altman:

absolutely, close.

Tamsen Webster:

That's 100% it. I mean, the whole philosophy of

Tamsen Webster:

the book is saying, well, all right, really what we're trying

Tamsen Webster:

to get people is, is to buy in and sales literally buy it,

Tamsen Webster:

right? We want them to become emotionally intellectually

Tamsen Webster:

invested, so that they put the money behind it. And if we

Tamsen Webster:

operate from this understanding that, you know, every every

Tamsen Webster:

decision like that, every choice, every Yes, is the

Tamsen Webster:

product of an argument, then we need to make sure that we're

Tamsen Webster:

supplying that argument, and if the arguments we agree with are

Tamsen Webster:

based on on what on the beliefs we already have, then the whole

Tamsen Webster:

philosophy of the book is really what it comes down to. It is

Tamsen Webster:

that if we're trying to build buy in, we need to be building

Tamsen Webster:

these arguments that are based on what people already want,

Tamsen Webster:

already believe. So I think where you know you I mean, I've

Tamsen Webster:

always loved so much your approach, and I really love

Tamsen Webster:

that, that that visual of, if you give them something

Tamsen Webster:

interesting, they'll follow. What this book really does is

Tamsen Webster:

say, make sure that whatever they followed will they will

Tamsen Webster:

continue to follow. Because, as you also pointed out, there are

Tamsen Webster:

those times where people will say yes, either to get you to

Tamsen Webster:

stop talking, or because they don't want to lose face. And

Tamsen Webster:

there are some principles in the book that speak to that. So one

Tamsen Webster:

of them, the fourth one, is that identity is the greatest

Tamsen Webster:

influencer. And what I mean, and what I'm talking about there, is

Tamsen Webster:

that one of the most reliable desires that all humans have is

Tamsen Webster:

to be seen as smart, capable and good. They may not believe that

Tamsen Webster:

they are, though many do, but they really want to be seen that

Tamsen Webster:

way. They want to be seen as smart, capable and good and long

Tamsen Webster:

term, that desire will override anything else, which is why, if

Tamsen Webster:

we make someone feel stupid for something that they've done in

Tamsen Webster:

the past, if we are using, if we are introducing pain into the

Tamsen Webster:

initial sales discussion to get them to act quickly, and yet,

Tamsen Webster:

what they stop and think about it, they're like, oh, actually

Tamsen Webster:

no, I am too smart, capable of a good person to have done that,

Tamsen Webster:

then we may get the initial movement, but it will not be an

Tamsen Webster:

initial movement that stays that way, because that desire to be

Tamsen Webster:

seen as smart, capable and good, again, not by you the

Tamsen Webster:

salesperson, but by the people they have to see every day, is

Tamsen Webster:

going to take over. And so it's, it's, it's really just asking

Tamsen Webster:

people to think beyond that first moment. And it's and great

Tamsen Webster:

salespeople already know this. It was one of the reasons why I

Tamsen Webster:

was so delighted that Matthew Dixon, the co author the

Tamsen Webster:

Challenger sale, gave me my cover blurb for it. Because, in

Tamsen Webster:

a lot of ways, you know, the whole idea of challenging what

Tamsen Webster:

people's beliefs is about is useful, if, right, if, if, if

Tamsen Webster:

we're doing it in a way that helps them validate their smart,

Tamsen Webster:

capable and goodness, and doesn't make it conditional,

Tamsen Webster:

which is what I think a lot of times we, perhaps

Tamsen Webster:

unintentionally, do, while saying, Well, you will be smart,

Tamsen Webster:

capable and good if you make this decision rather than you

Tamsen Webster:

are. And there's why this decision makes sense.

Ian Altman:

Yeah, we often teach this notion that the reason why

Ian Altman:

people often stick with an existing vendor, even if they've

Ian Altman:

messed up, and even if the new vendor comes in and shows how

Ian Altman:

they're gonna be better, is because one, they have to fire

Ian Altman:

the vendor they liked enough to hire to begin with, yes. And

Ian Altman:

two, they have to acknowledge that maybe they made a mistake,

Ian Altman:

and most humans don't want to do either. So they go back to their

Ian Altman:

existing vendor and say, Hey, these other guys said that we

Ian Altman:

should be doing it this way. So why don't you take a look? And

Ian Altman:

you're like, why did they not switch to us? And it's because

Ian Altman:

we made them feel badly. If instead, you say, look, these

Ian Altman:

guys were probably the best vendor to pick at the time. And

Ian Altman:

what some people found is that just they've gotten so

Ian Altman:

sophisticated as a company that those vendors can't service them

Ian Altman:

anymore. You think that's possible with you? Oh yeah,

Ian Altman:

that's probably true. Now it's like, I didn't make a mistake.

Ian Altman:

It's that the other vendor can no longer support me, and

Ian Altman:

that's, that's what's happened. So

Tamsen Webster:

validate that, validate that original choice,

Tamsen Webster:

because then oftentimes it'll also reveal something that they

Tamsen Webster:

value and they don't want to lose. And so if there's a way

Tamsen Webster:

that you can build whatever they are, you know what they don't

Tamsen Webster:

want to lose, make sure that you are emphasizing how that is

Tamsen Webster:

still present in the switch. That can help too.

Ian Altman:

That's awesome. So where do people get the book,

Ian Altman:

aside from everywhere, and where do they connect with you and

Ian Altman:

learn more about what you're doing? Yeah.

Tamsen Webster:

So they can get the book. The easiest way to

Tamsen Webster:

remember it is little changebook.com where they can

Tamsen Webster:

get all sorts of aspects of it, because sometimes people don't

Tamsen Webster:

remember say what they can't done here, I know irony, but

Tamsen Webster:

little changebook.com and to find out and more along these

Tamsen Webster:

lines of thinking, I recently founded the message design

Tamsen Webster:

institute. So message design institute.com. Will take you to

Tamsen Webster:

all things persuasive. Message design,

Ian Altman:

listen. Message design, I get, I still refer to

Ian Altman:

you as the message whisperer, because I work that's I feel

Ian Altman:

like that notion, that notion of, just like coming up with

Ian Altman:

stuff that sticks, is is incredibly valuable. So thanks

Ian Altman:

for sharing this. I can't wait to read the book and and I'm

Ian Altman:

sure our listeners will love it as well. If it's, if it's half

Ian Altman:

as good as find your red thread, then I guess find your red

Ian Altman:

thread would be twice as good as this. That's not the right

Ian Altman:

that's not the right example. But if it's, but if it's, if

Ian Altman:

it's half as good, it's still going to be amazing. So, and I'm

Ian Altman:

sure it's even better. So thanks so much for joining me. Thank

Tamsen Webster:

you so much. Ian, you.

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